How Human-Centric Leadership Can Create Cultures that Value People with Jehanzeb Noor, President & Managing Director at Trivium Packaging

Ashish Kothari: Hey, Jehanzeb, it is so lovely to have you, my friend, on our Happiness Squad Podcast. Thank you for making the time.

Jehanzeb Noor: Thanks for asking, Ashish. Really a pleasure to be here with you and see you again. Thank you.

Ashish Kothari: Jehanzeb, from our early days at McKinsey, we've known each other now for almost 20 years and you always stood out as someone who cared deeply about people. There was a magic to the teams you led at McKinsey. And since then, you've been leading your third company. Everyone I interact with talks about what a great leader you are.

It's really exciting to have you here and share some of the things that have helped you in your development and enable you to show up the way you do.

Jehanzeb Noor: I'm not sure I deserve all the praise, but thank you for the kind words. I'm a product of everyone who invested in me since I was much younger, and that includes you. So thank you.

Ashish Kothari: My pleasure.

So start by telling us a bit about human-centric cultures. You really live it, focusing on people. What does that mean to you and why have you always made it the foundation of your career, regardless of what was happening around?

Jehanzeb Noor: Human-centric culture. What does that mean to me? If I put myself in the shoes of my coworkers, what I hope for them to say is that I, as an employee, come into work looking forward to it. I know it's going to be tough. There will be mistakes and it will be frustrating at times, but overall, I see it as something I look forward to.

Then, when I am feeling down or struggling, I don't have to hide it. I can talk about it and ask for help. And guess what? I'm willing to do the same for my other coworkers because they might one day be struggling or unhappy.

Human-centric culture to me is being given not what I want, but what I need in terms of being stressed, contributing, and being challenged. When you put all of that together, a human-centric culture is one which is transparent, authentic, provides psychological safety, and it's extremely hard to build. It's harder than buying a new machine and installing it into a factory, harder than introducing a new KPI.

Regarding your second question about what I've done about it through my career, I started in an investment bank, then in the automotive industry, and then consulting, where I met you at the lowest level. I didn't know anything about leading or influencing people.

Some of it is luck, but some of it is a product of the challenging environments I picked.I wanted to be challenged, so I picked places that expected high performance at a high pace with smart people around. That made me feel very insecure at times.

At Ford, for example, I saw people really caring about the outcome because the cars we were designing determined people's safety, their experience, and how they interact with their families.

We would struggle, not meet our engineering objectives, but then we would put in more hours, work on the weekend. That's where I really learned about role modeling from humble engineers who led by example.

At McKinsey, I was given opportunities well before my tenure, and you were among the people who did that, giving me assignments where I thought I wasn't qualified. But I was selected for different skill sets and not only was I coached through it, I was actually given the limelight. A lot of leaders struggle to give others credit because of insecurity.

But I saw the opposite at McKinsey, where many would send me in to present stuff to the board even though I was just an associate, project leader, or engagement manager sitting amongst partners. It was okay for me to speak up, of course, with the right moderation.

So, long story short, I really benefited from people giving me opportunities well beyond my capabilities and tenure. And then I grew into it naturally. When you give someone an A, they earn it. That's a big part of why I focus on people because I accelerated through my career only because of what other people did for me.

To me, it's about passing it on, which is something I really enjoyed and benefited from. Those people who helped me, they don't want anything in return. So, the best thing I can do is pass it on. That's why I do it, to thank the people who have invested in me.

Ashish Kothari: It's so beautiful. To summarize, number one, for listeners, look at the heart of what you're describing through intuition is the pearl model, which we use so much for our flourishing work, emphasizes that when people find work meaningful, rather than just earning a paycheck, they are excited to show up.

Second, being treated in a way that lifts you up, so you're valued and recognized, is energizing. That's what makes you keep coming back. You mentioned that we are going to have obstacles, hard conversations, and conflicts, but there's no need to hide it.

We can have the support needed to navigate these challenges, offering psychological safety and trust, without having to watch our backs. We can talk about making mistakes, learn from them, and get input from others.

Finally, being valued and getting the support to operate with flexibility and autonomy helps us be at our best. You didn't mention it, Jehanzeb, but I know you're good at setting boundaries, showing it's okay to unplug and care about family, which goes a long way.

Jehanzeb Noor: That's right, Ashish. Over the last many years, I've realized that people want a natural environment. It's natural and healthy to have a hobby, spend time with loved ones, and admit when you're exhausted and need to change your scenery to recharge.

As an immigrant, you start with nothing or almost nothing, and you can't take anything for granted. All you can do is work hard and hope for the best. It took me many years to find that balance.

I'm not perfect now, but it's night and day different because what I realized is, people not only want a leader who's hardworking, committed, and invested on the outcome, whether it’s solving a problem or financial or whatever else, but they also want to work with a human being.

If I am not in touch with human values, and if I'm not a functioning human being, I don't have to be perfect. I can be open about my flaws. But if I'm trying to be a good, balanced, decent human being, others are more likely to want to work in that environment. So yes, you have to be successful and have a bit of humanity.

Ashish Kothari: The science is clear. Over the last 10 to 15 years, it's added up. Recent research from Oxford showed the impact of work wellbeing and satisfaction on shareholder returns, profitability, and return on assets.

go back to some work done in: 2007

You look at companies that do well, they also have high work well-being. So is it the well-being driving the result or is it because the company’s making a lot of money, they take care of people.

He did this work that you’ve intuitively tuned into, which is when employees are happier, more satisfied, he proved a causation of two to three and a half percent higher stock market returns year over year.

This only works in the mid to long term. If it's 18 to 24 months, it's really hard to move the needle because it's really hard to create a natural work environment where all the things we discussed are part of the course and embedded in the culture. People see through the artificial things.

Jehanzeb Noor: Exactly. And Ashish, it's contextual. Understanding the industry, the company, the countries you operate in, and then your team is critical. Tailoring the approach is key. For example, look at Stryker. Their CEO, Kevin Lobo, is a very people-centric guy, very authentic. It matters that he talks about patients and shows up to hospitals, genuinely following up.

You can reach out to him no matter who you are, and he will always respond, both inside and outside of Stryker, in an industry that helps save people's lives. Stryker is a high-performing company.

Then, consider Apple. Many think of it as having a cutthroat culture because of Steve Jobs, but that's not entirely true. Steve Jobs fundamentally believed in his mission to make great products and leave a lasting company that lives well beyond his own short life.

He was so consistent that it led to personal and professional issues, including being fired from Apple. However, over years and decades, people respected him. It's not about wanting the same personality as Steve Jobs, but about pushing for perfection and doing the right thing for the product, which is extremely difficult to build and replicate. It takes multiple decades.

After him, look at what Tim Cook has done. He's not just launching AI platforms; he's driving the company forward. I use these public examples to show that strong cultures, often misinterpreted as not people-centric, attract like-minded people who care about the same things and challenge and reward them.

Another example is Toyota, with its continuous improvement mindset embedded in all people processes. The science you shared doesn't surprise me because admired companies have a strong DNA around culture and people, which varies across industries.

Ashish Kothari: He's a brilliant guy. It was amazing to have him. So, Jehanzeb, obviously your journey, like mine, involves coming to this country; you from Pakistan and I from India. Along the way, we adopted a hustle culture, where performance matters, a mindset driven into us from growing up and from which we obviously benefit.

Now, who are two to three people in your career who have shaped you into who you are today, who showed you a different way and became role models for you?

Jehanzeb Noor: I won't name them or reveal their identities because I didn't ask for permission, and that's part of being trusted.

Ashish Kothari: But think about the situations or journeys you went through, good or bad, where somebody showed up for you.

Jehanzeb Noor: I'll start with my current employer. I'm in an industrials company. This is actually the first business I've been with since I left McKinsey. It's the third one where margins on certain products to certain customers are razor-thin.

The room for error is very small. You have to be operationally excellent to make a decent margin and we're private equity owned, so the expectations are high. I hired someone from the outside for a particular function where we needed to accelerate our capabilities.

This executive is from a Western European country. He has been with only two or three companies for almost 30 years since he graduated from university. That's enough variety but not too much.

One of the personality traits he has, similar to what I discussed about Steve Jobs, is consistency, no matter the level of pressure, who is in the room, or what's in it for him personally. You see that this person really puts the company first, thinks about the team, and has a high level of integrity.

When you see it repeatedly, you realize that takes skill. That's an unconscious skill right there. And just like I have made mistakes, this person has made mistakes too. Occasionally, when I'm not centered or my best self, when I act out in a particular setting, whether it's a small group or a large group, it has happened over the last 18 months, probably five or six times.

He is the only person who has nothing to gain from it because it could also upset me. Then he reaches out to me and says, "Jahanzeb, I understand why you did what you did. Is this really how you wanted to behave? Did you really have to say that? Did you really have to behave this way? Did you really have to react?"

Ashish Kothari: So brave enough, courageous enough to come to you and be there.

Jehanzeb Noor: “I just want you to know that I observed something that is not you at your best.” He's very polite and diplomatic. This is an exception.

He doesn't just give feedback and hang up. He waits for me to react and then engages. He's also figuring me out. He's the guy coming with proposals and plans that need investment. That's why we hired him. But he also figures out how to handle others. He's not manipulative. I've talked about high integrity. This is one example where I've learned from someone who works with me.

He always calls me the boss, but I want to tell him, "Hey, you're the boss. You're actually in charge. You're making more decisions than you realize because of your style, grace, and consistency." He's a deep functional expert.

The myths that you can have high IQ or high EQ but not both are not true. He's a myth buster right there. I'm so proud to have him on my team, and I believe sooner rather than later, he'll be ready for my job, whether it's at my current employer or somewhere else.

One thing I've learned is if you really love someone on your team and they're ready and capable, you let them go if you can't promote them from within. You tell them, "I love having you around because you make my life easier and you make others' lives easier, but you should really go do something else."

Ashish Kothari: Well, that's something so amazing about you. Universe pays back. You played that role for me, what this person has played for you. I remember when I was an EM and you were an associate.

The first time I was leading people, it was really hard. I had high standards and given the amount of pressure, I was always extra nice to people who were high performing and quite brutal in those early days in my early thirties for those who were not performing well.

And I remember you had come up to me and asked me something because you knew how much I cared about people, yet I was showing up in a way which was not really authentic and not really in service.

You said to me, "If you have someone on your team that is not performing as well as someone who is performing really well, who do you think is working harder? Do you work hard when you're not doing well or when it's easy for you?" And it completely changed my perspective.

I was judging the output, but not taking into account the inputs. These people were killing themselves day in, day out, trying to rise to the challenge, and here I was not showing that I deeply cared. I appreciated the inputs. I was just upset about the output not being there. It changed the way I manage people and it's been the biggest gift you've given me.

Jehanzeb Noor: Thank you, Ashish, you're too kind. Another person, and this I raise less to talk about my familial history, more to invite the audience on a certain point, was my grandfather who really took me in when I was a little kid struggling at school.

My mother was very worried, and my grandfather had this way of teaching mathematics and science to kids. He had done that when he was orphaned very early to earn money on the side and support his family and his mother.

It's very hard when you give advice to family because you want them to follow your way of thinking, your religion, your way of dressing, what you like to eat. It's just in our DNA. We pass on not only our genes but our identities, our habits, and we are both fathers, so you know how hard it is not to tell your son what to do.

This was a person who, since I was younger than my middle son, let's say I was seven, I would go and ask for advice. He never actually told me what to do, not once. He raised me for about 10 years before I left to go to the U.S. to finish high school on my own.

It is so consistent. He would help me think through the different options and what I like, what works, what doesn’t work, but wouldn't tell me you should do it this way or that way.

When I was 10 or 11 years old, I was so independent, making decisions, mostly proper decisions, good for my future, good for the environment, thinking about other people, aware socially, politically, not just academically.

And I think this discipline as a coach to help your coachee or mentee figure it out takes longer, but it works much better instead of being prescriptive or dictatorial or rushing through the steps. “Well, why don't you just do this and it'll work,” that's very hard.

And people might now be thinking, this guy is saying that it's nice growing up as a kid situation, but I'm under pressure at work. People are missing deadlines and so on, but there's only one of you. And there are probably 5, 10, 15, 20 others you rely on, whether you have direct reports or not, to be successful. How many people can you actually figure it out for?

The point that I want to come back to is we are all products of our childhood much more than we realize. There's a lot of science behind this. Ashish, you taught me a lot of this when you did the purpose reactivation work with us at Trivium.

You really asked us to figure out who we are, where we came from, as much as where we are today and where we want to go as an organization. You made it very personal.

So again, for all of us, it's important to really accept, understand, and grow from where we originate and how we were raised, and what worked well in our minds, what didn’t work well, what made us happy, what didn’t make us happy.

So a lot of my style of coaching actually comes from my grandfather. Now, half the time I struggle with that with my own children because of that propensity to pass on more than is necessary.

Ashish Kothari: Because we care so much, right?

Jehanzeb Noor: And it doesn't actually work no matter who you're dealing with, whether it's your spouse, your neighbor, your kid, or your friend. It takes so much effort to listen and understand people or individuals before you do more with them.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah. Literally, this was the same point, Jehanzeb, that I was coaching a CEO of a startup. We're serving them on a pretty long journey. He's very thoughtful as a leader because he recognized you need to be superhuman in a startup given there's never enough resources.

It's VC-backed, so you have to meet these crazy audacious goals. And so he's doing a nine-month journey, investing in flourishing for his old team individually and as leaders.

Jehanzeb Noor: That's fantastic. Most startups would see that as a luxury or a nice to have, but for someone to say that's a necessity, that's super rare.

Ashish Kothari: He's like, we need to, otherwise… He had a very successful exit and he recognized that the sacrifices he made the first time around, he doesn't want himself or anybody else to make.

But I'll tell you the conversation I was having with him is, he's struggling with a couple of his team members around, like, he was in a mindset of “I have to figure it out,” or “I always have to figure it out, and this is the exact conversation that I was having.

It's fine now, but there are two things that are happening. In fact, this is suboptimal, even though in the short term, you might think it's getting you to the goal faster. The first one is you're basically making everybody else dependent on you.

You're making them lazy, like your grandfather, rather than tell you the solution, telling you what to do. He taught you how to think, which serves you forever. So one, you're not making people lazy because they always will come to you with, "Hey, what do you think I should do?" And how many of those are you going to solve?

But the second is, no matter who you are, we are living in a world that is moving so fast and things are changing so quickly, they will always have more data and they will always be able to respond quickly if what you told them actually stopped working. So like this notion of you can’t solve it for other people.

Jehanzeb Noor: No. And you know, this is a lot of people call it holding others accountable. That's one way. I'm just trying to help the audience put it in your framework because there's no right framework here.

But holding people accountable, another way of looking at this is when you treat people like this and you are willing to explore and listen and then offer advice, they're not afraid of raising their issues.

What I say is that in many ways, bad news is good news. That means that people are making things transparent. Good news is kind of no news. We can always talk about what's going well and that no news is bad news because that means if things seem too calm, too steady, something's about to happen in today's volatile world that no one's anticipating. And if someone comes to me with an issue, I genuinely encourage them to bring a solution every now and then.

It's totally fine to say, "I really tried, but I couldn't figure this out. Can you help me? Or can you get others on this profile to help me?" That should happen one in four or five cases, not more because that's also a testament to people's capabilities.

But it's so powerful also for leaders. Whether you have direct reports or not, and influencers to be open when you are struggling and saying, "I'm stuck, can someone help?"

Ashish Kothari: We have to normalize it versus help make people hide it, because then you get into trouble.

So listen, you talked about this just briefly, Jehanzeb. I remember the work we did together. You were three, four years into a transformation. It's private equity-backed, and you called me around saying, "Hey, can you help us around the purpose journey to talk a little bit about what you were thinking and a little bit about what was the impact of that purpose activation that you experienced?"

Jehanzeb Noor: Again, we are all products of where we come from, more so than we realize because we think we're individuals, but we are really influenced by our surroundings more than we admit.

I came to this industrial company from a medical device background, and there, the linkage to purpose is a bit easier, I would say, because you're in hospitals and your devices are being used on human beings, you can really relate to the outcomes personally.

Here we do sell essential products, but there's less of a sentiment attached to them. I was missing this excitement in terms of what we are doing as people in this company. We have plenty of posters that say all the right things that were created by focus groups.

And I realized those are exactly that. No one's really talking about them. They don't seem to matter in day-to-day work. And it's not because of a lack of effort, leaders try to refer to them every now and then, but it's completely disconnected. And then what I realized is there is a sense of purpose in very localized nodes.

Either sales teams that are selling in a particular country or plants that are located in a community where they have local customers and a lot of employees who have worked there for many years and are even second or third generation.

So they're not lacking the purpose, but the power is to combine all of these little nuggets and elevate the purpose for the entire company. Why? Because in the end, you also need to operate as a team, as part of a bigger organization.

So, we are not 40 different companies. We are one company and we have to find a way to join these nuggets and have a higher sense of purpose. Why? Because we have to operate as a team. A local site is going to rely on some central capabilities. A country salesperson reports into a regional sales leader.

So you get that. But then I thought, how are we going to do this in an authentic way that people relate with? Because it's very easy to say, let's do a top-down communication on a new product. New way of looking at our purpose. Let's give people posters. Let's give people training materials. Let's make sure they use these in their local presentations. We actually didn't do any of that. We worked with you because I knew you would not come in with a cookie-cutter approach from the Happiness Squad.

And you did a bunch of workshops where you tried to understand, and you did understand what purpose means for these local nodes, and we identified those nodes intentionally because they were either representative of many other people or they were critical to the business success.

Once we did that, we then assessed the corporate purpose we have, where is it working and where is it falling short? And what we found out, it's not falling short because we need to edit the text. It's not falling short because the words are wrong. It's falling short because our middle managers in particular kind of do their own thing.

And then we did a lot of work to connect those two. What's important to you locally? What's important to the company? Is it consistent? Yes or no. And most people realize it's more consistent than they thought.

And then we role modeled a lot of the behaviors, both at the local level and the central level. We really celebrated. I just gave out, I had my annual leadership meeting in Croatia just a few days ago.

One of the awards we have introduced now is well-being and purpose, because one leads to another. You can say if you have a strong purpose, you'll feel better, you'll be happier, you'll lead people in a more effective way.

And that went to someone who's been in our business for nearly 40 years. This is someone who really cares about customers, about employees. Would literally push himself under the bus to protect his team, but he's not protective in a way that accepts low performance. He's loyal, you know, and he holds people to a high standard.

And this was the only award I gave 18 different awards in many different categories, seven or eight categories. This was the only award where without me prompting unrehearsed, we had 135 people out of 5,000 in key positions, every single person instantaneously stood up and it was the longest round of ovation.

And actually, it had such a profound effect on me that I lost my words. I was pretty well put together and it took me a few seconds and the two of us hugged. After the fact I reflected, why is that? This on paper, on the surface has nothing to do with profit, cash flow, revenue, other KPIs. Why are people so invested in this award?

And I really concluded three different things. First is maybe not for the first time, but in a long time, we rewarded someone for the right behaviors. This is your input versus output.

And we picked someone who in a private equity environment, it's very easy to say, “Oh, these people, they're old school, get them out of the way. We want to drive all this change. We don't need people resisting.”

So a lot of these longer-term employees and coworkers, they actually suffer in a change environment, not because eventually they're unwilling, but they're judged and they're typecast, you know. And we showed that here is someone who's helping us lead and drive that change because he cares about the longevity of the company so much.

The second reason was that we had done all this work on purpose, investing in reactivating purpose, and well-being that saying this is important for us to continue and we will recognize someone on an ongoing basis really mattered. It really mattered. And this is now going to be a consistent thing.

And the third reason was because this person individually has helped so many others. And it's not because they reported to him or they were in his business units. He's like my Kevin Lobo at Striker example. A genuinely helpful guy who, if you reach out to.

I remember once I had a dinner event at my home, I invited my team and this gentleman was there and he serves a particular segment, seafood. And my friends from the neighborhood started asking him about sardines and herrings and he was so passionate.

He said, “no, no, no, that's not how you catch this fish.” This is what happens. And he has people around him. So he has helped and touched so many people. And when you lift these people up, it really, then others say, I want to be part of this team.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, what you're describing, Jehanzeb, all the work that we do, this is one of the highlights for us at Happiness Squad personally. It wasn't just the work per se, but also how you and your leadership showed up to really activate your purpose statement, not just check the box.

You recognized it as the core, as a superpower when people find their 'why' and operate cohesively. There is so much more that is possible. But I want to talk a little bit about this person because this is where you're living and breathing what we know from research.

So there's a professor I love at Michigan Ross, Professor Kim Cameron. He's at the Center for Positive Organization Scholarship. For the last 25 years, he has researched the effect of people like these, who he calls positive energizers, and their impact on significantly higher performance in teams and companies. They affect a much larger group than just those around them.

People reach out to them, even if there is no direct relationship, because they lift people up, inspire them, and truly live as role models of meaning and well-being, thereby achieving results.

They're not soft. This ties into the emotional intelligence discussion we were having earlier this week. Emotional intelligence does not equal being nice. It's much more than that. Positive energizing is so powerful.

Jehanzeb Noor: Being nice is easy. That's where it's sometimes just checking the box. It's not going very deep. If I'm going to give you feedback that I fundamentally believe in, it might affect how you view me in the short term. I might be uncomfortable if you dislike me.

So, being nice doesn't actually mean you're being emotionally intelligent. I fully agree. If you want to be an effective change leader or any kind of coworker, speaking truly and honestly about how you feel, how things are going, and also being willing to receive it, that's what creates a special culture.

It's even hard with your spouse. It's hard with your loved ones because how many times do you bite your tongue and say, "Well, if I bring that up, that might lead to a fight"? But if you keep doing that over and over, it's going to negatively impact your long-term relationship. Then something bad could happen.

Ashish Kothari: It always is. Jehanzeb, talk to me a little bit about mentorship because you've mentioned people who have mentored you and you mentor so many. We also have a mentorship program running.

Jehanzeb Noor: Yeah.

Ashish Kothari: So talk a little bit about that.

Jehanzeb Noor: Our cohort, this is the second cohort I'm sponsoring at Trivium. The first one I was hands-on with, but this second one I actually have two co-leaders doing a fantastic job. I do some coaching, join every now and then, and share my thoughts or answer questions.

You led this session on emotional intelligence, which the cohort selected. We let them choose one topic, and this time the majority wanted something on emotional intelligence. Unfortunately, no individual has time to coach and mentor multiple people. There's a limit; a lot of research will tell you, you can't do it effectively beyond eight to 12 people.

So in a 5,000 person organization, how am I going to multiply that level of self-awareness, understanding yourself: Where do you come from? Does this company fit your way of thinking? Are you at the right place? Can you be authentic? How do you create a culture where everyone can be open?

You need a multiplier effect. Every company does this differently. I first did this at my previous job, the medical device company I led, and it was highly effective. So for me, it's become a bit of a trick to get people at a different level of development at a much accelerated pace. It takes a lot of personal time and commitment because a lot of it we do ourselves.

Long story short, we take 25 to 30 pairs, mentor-mentee. Diversity and inclusivity is a major selection criterion, in our top three. The other one is how much potential the mentee has to develop into a leadership role and how much of a track record the mentor has of coaching others, and this can really take their game to the next level.

They might not get a promotion anymore, but they'll become happier. Everybody wants to coach and give. And then the third criterion is how critical are their jobs to the outcomes for the company, but that's a distant third.

So we have a lot of people from different countries. We have a balance of gender, religious backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, sexual orientations. Of course, a lot of this stuff is private, but some people are very open about who they are. We do the best we can to mix it up.

A lot of people start skeptical. We do this over a six-month period. There's an online event every three or four weeks. Let's say you have eight or so events, including kickoff and wrap-up.

There's a lot of homework and exercises that are assigned for people to do in pairs and we share openly. We have guest speakers like yourself. It's an investment of 90 minutes max every session. Your training was 90 minutes, some are even 75 minutes.

Ashish Kothari: And how often? Every week, Jehanzeb, or every month?

Jehanzeb Noor: In six months we do about eight or nine sessions, so every three weeks or so. And we need to give people time to do these exercises, which have to do with planning your development, relating that with your strengths, relating that with who you have become, consciously or unconsciously, what habits do you want to change?

Why is it important to you? And then a whole process of walking people through that, for example, emotional intelligence being a tool that a lot of people felt needs to be enhanced. The satisfaction level is extremely high.

I've also had people quit after these programs, not many, but one or two after a cohort, sometimes three, it's typical because they say, "Hey, this made me very self-aware that life is too short and I'm not happy here. I'm not going to be happy here. And thank you for making me aware." Is it okay if I leave?

And we say, "Yes, because you're either going to become a supplier at some point or a customer or a reference. And if nothing else, a happy human being."

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, well, it's investing in the long term and making sure it goes back to this point around flourishing in the end. It's about caring about people and making sure you're developing. And I love the point that you make. I'm not sure many leaders would say that.

To say, "Hey, listen, if I have a great person, I would rather see them grow and find somewhere else rather than keep them constrained," if there isn't a fit, and being able to see the potential in another person, show it to them, but also set them free.

Jehanzeb Noor: That attracts more talent. And we have succession plans. We don't have critical positions where we don't develop successors. The problem is when you have to wait for people to retire to elevate others. You either need to have a rotational program or a way to create opportunity. Otherwise, the high performers leave first; they vote with their feet, not with their mouths.

Ashish Kothari: So just a couple of questions, Jehanzeb, as we wrap up. We can chat for so much longer, my friend. We'd love to have you back at some point.

One is, look, there is a lot that you have to juggle. You're now running a nearly $2Billion division, 40 to 50 plants, multiple countries, in a private equity setting, during a major turnaround. That's a lot.

How do you make sure—what are some personal practices that are your go-to to make sure you are filling your cup to be the best leader for others?

Jehanzeb Noor: I will actually share a few cliches because I really believe in them.

First of all, I'm not alone. I have around 35 leaders who are, in a sense, mini-me's—all the best traits I have. There are other people, 35 or so, leading a function, a business, or a sales team, where when I walk into a room, they don't sit up straight; they continue sitting as they are and say, "Hey, how's it going?"

We have a conversation as equals, so the hierarchy doesn't matter. You can only juggle things, and it takes a while, but it shouldn't take more than two or three years to have the right number of high-performing people around you, which doesn't mean new people.

Most of those people are legacy people where we have given them an unlock to be themselves, to speak up more, to not feel like "I brought this up so many times, no one cares." So, that's number one.

Number two is brutal prioritization to a fault. We generate eight or ten ideas in any major strategy workshop or future planning session. We pick no more than three. You can't do more than that from a bandwidth or capital deployment standpoint. The ones we pick, we go deep and fast. And if they're not working, we admit the mistake, cut it, learn from it, and move on.

So, the other thing to juggle many things is to have the right ones and as few as possible.

And I can tell you that there's three things we are working on now after our Croatia leadership meeting. We validated them and everyone's pulling the rope in the same direction and it takes a lot of realignment, refresh, communication, team building to cascade it down to the frontline, whether it's the sales frontline or the manufacturing frontline.

Now, personally for me, how do I keep my cup full? I've learned to be more self-aware and accepting of how I feel without judging it, which is the hardest thing to do because I'm my own worst critic, like many of us are.

On days where I'm feeling a bit blue or running out of steam, or unhappy with someone or something, instead of judging, I let that sink in. Then I figure out what I should do about it. It's not always perfect because I mentioned a coworker who keeps me centered.

So every now and then I also react, but mostly I reflect, and it's okay to be down. We're all humans, even the world's strongest people, mentally or physically.

Ashish Kothari: It is so important, you know, because most people either numb the emotion or they act it out. But what you're talking about is the middle path—acceptance and just being with it.

“I don't have to act it out. I'm feeling this way. I know it's not going to last forever, but I also want to be able to make it an object. Why do I feel this way? What is my role in it? What is another's role in it?”

So you can find the answer in a much more clearly thinking fashion versus under the shadow of that emotion.

Jehanzeb Noor: I fully agree. The second thing is correlated to things like lifespan. In everyone's life, there's someone, whether it's a pet, a human, or multiple humans, that gives you meaning through spending time and quality time.

It doesn't mean a long period of time, but feeling connected, being able to talk, share, and be present. So, whoever is important to you, whether it's a current friend or an old friend you haven't talked to, make time.

Saying "I'm so busy, I'll make time when I can," is just an excuse. It'll never happen. Having this human touch, whether it's your church, mosque, synagogue, or temple, you need to make time a few hours a week, maybe two, could be ten, to connect with people at a human level.

That also reminds you of the human condition—you're not alone. There are many others in a worse position. It also reminds you to be grateful.

The third one is something that works for me, and sometimes it backfires, but I'm more than happy to live with the consequences. Jehanzeb does what Jehanzeb thinks is right. I used to get into trouble at McKinsey for speaking my mind.

Everyone would ask, "Why did you say that?" Well, I really believe it, I've thought about it, and I have to share it. If there are consequences, I will live with them.

That doesn't work for everyone. Some people need to be more diplomatic; some people need the job and don't want to take risks.

The moment I start to compromise on what I think is right and do something different, it backfires because I can't sleep at night.

It doesn't mean I always make the right decisions. I've made plenty of mistakes, like being patient with people who have experience and building on their experience to drive change.

I let go of some experienced people in a different job too quickly, didn't realize the negative repercussions and the message it sends, then I realized it was a profound mistake—one that I never made again, but I had to learn the hard way by actually making the mistake.

To those people, I asked for their forgiveness, and I forgive myself for those mistakes because they were not poorly intentioned, they were not personal, but I could have done many things better.

Ashish Kothari: I love it. This has been such a full conversation, Jehanzeb. I'm just really grateful to have you as a friend, as a client, and as a colleague when we work together. You truly are an amazing leader, and the company is lucky to have you.

Thank you for doing the wonderful work you're doing and really being a shining role model for what a great leader can be and how through investing in our people, really authentically, in a natural way, you can deliver great results. You can be successful.

We don't have to tread on people. We don't have to burn them out. Thank you for being a role model of that. I appreciated this conversation so much.

Jehanzeb Noor: Thanks for all your help, Ashish, along the way. It took a lot of work and is still a work in progress. So good luck with everything. Thank you.