Boosting Your Mental Edge through Psychological Fitness with Dr. Karen Doll

Ashish Kothari: Hi, dear Karen. It is so lovely to have you today with us. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Karen Doll: Good morning. Thanks so much for having me. We've had this in the works for some time. I'm glad we're making it happen.

Ashish Kothari: I loved your book, Building Psychological Fitness: How High Performers Achieve With Ease. There was so much synchronicity, I'm putting the book up for everybody to read. Please get a copy of it. For those listening, we’ll include it in the show notes.

It’s a wonderful collection of tools and practices that help us achieve more by being more, rather than just doing more, which is often the standard model of leaders. You emphasize this by building psychological fitness.

Karen, could you start by defining what you mean by psychological fitness and its role in helping someone flourish?

Dr. Karen Doll: I use the term psychological fitness because I wanted to promote the idea that we can have some agency over our well-being and train for it. I totally agree we need to focus more on being, not just doing. I don't want it to sound like we just need to do more things and add to the list of things to be psychologically healthy.

But psychological fitness includes the overall pillars of well-being: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, having a sense of purpose, living in alignment with what’s important to us, contributing to something beyond ourselves, and having healthy connections as humans.

Flourishing, as a concept, is similar. I align with Tyler VanderWeele’s definitions from the Harvard Human Flourishing Program, which outlines five domains of flourishing, which are similar to what I just mentioned. He also talks about different pathways to flourishing, such as in the workplace, education, family, and in religion or faith.

Ashish Kothari: Beautiful. Yeah, I love the holistic nature of that, and the idea of agency. I always say, you get to being by doing. We have enough knowledge on overcoming stress, meditation, cultivating purpose, and building relationships. But if we’re not practicing them, nothing shifts. When we practice regularly, then we become it, and that’s when things fundamentally change.

Talk a little about the science behind this idea that we can practice psychological fitness and have agency over our well-being. What are you seeing from your work with leaders regarding the impact they experience as a result of building psychological fitness?

Dr. Karen Doll: It starts and ends with building self-awareness—taking time for accurate reflection, understanding our thoughts, emotions, responses to situations, triggers, and patterns. That’s really where it begins. In psychology, we say that even taking the time to make an observation in and of itself can serve as an intervention.

We have so much research now in positive psychology, showing that small, incremental steps, taken over time, can have a long-term effect on well-being.

Some people might push back, saying, “It’s so easy, can it really be that impactful?” The answer is yes. These practices are easy to do, but they’re also easy not to do. The idea is that small, consistent steps can have a compound effect.

My favorite moments with clients are when, over time, they notice changes in themselves. They’ll say, “This thing happened, and the old me would have overreacted or ruminated about it. But the new me is showing up differently, and I’m experiencing it differently.”

That’s the powerful part of change. You don’t know when that moment will happen, but when it does, it’s transformational.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, I love that. You’ve highlighted that these practices are designed to be small and simple. Let me share a story that brings this idea to life.

There was a yoga studio that opened, and the owner believed novelty and varied classes would bring success. People would come a couple of times but then stop. Meanwhile, another studio that had been around for a while offered the same basic yoga practice—and they were oversold, with lines for weeks.

The first owner was curious, so he went to take a class. It was a basic yoga class. He came back a second time and the class was exactly the same. He came a third time, thinking he missed something, but it was still the same class.

Intrigued, he asked the teacher, “Why do people keep coming for the same thing? You’re doing the same class every time.” The teacher said, “They keep coming because, while the practice doesn’t change, they are different every time.

They grow—sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. When we stick to these simple, time-tested practices, we notice our own growth. But when we chase after every new, flashy thing, we’re just drowning in knowledge without real change.” When we commit to doing these simple things consistently, we’ll see ourselves changing in meaningful ways.

Dr. Karen Doll: I love that. That also makes me think of the power and comfort that comes with ritual and sameness. Even though we like some novelty, we really value comfort, predictability, and stability. That makes perfect sense to me. I grew up Catholic, and when I go back to a Catholic church or mass, it's comforting because it’s so familiar. To some people, it might feel rote, but I find it enriching and nourishing.

Ashish Kothari: That’s why we created Rewire, a habit formation program. About 50 to 90 percent of what we do is habit-based. Rather than teaching 10 habits in a one-day or two-day class, we focus on one or two habits each month.

We help people build these simple five-minute practices, beginning and ending the day with them, and doing it in a community while holding each other accountable. That’s when the magic happens.

Dr. Karen Doll: Absolutely, it’s always better to do it together. I love the phrase: "Shared burdens are divided, and shared joys are multiplied."

Ashish Kothari: You mentioned awareness, and it shows up in both of our books as a key element—it’s at the heart of psychological fitness. Talk to us about cultivating self-awareness and what actually gets in the way.

We often hear, “You should be more aware,” but many people think they already are. What does self-awareness mean, and why are we often less self-aware than we think?

Dr. Karen Doll: Isn’t that interesting? You’re probably familiar with the research. When I’m facilitating group experiences, I’ll often do a little poll: "How many people consider themselves self-aware?" Usually, 99 percent say yes.

To their credit, people attending personal or professional development experiences are probably ahead of the curve. But research shows that only about 10 percent of us are actually, truly self-aware.

What gets in the way are our perceptions, mental models, and cognitive distortions. We can only gain so much self-awareness through introspection. Without outside feedback, our self-awareness is limited.

We can’t develop it in isolation. To truly enhance self-awareness, we need feedback from trusted people—partners, coaches, therapists—anyone who is in a position to support us in advancing our self-awareness.

Ashish Kothari: What are some of your favorite tools or approaches? You mentioned feedback from friends or professionals, but what are two or three things people can explore to start building that self-awareness muscle?

Dr. Karen Doll: What surprises me is how many people come to coaching, and while they can share their challenges and pain points, when I ask about their strengths, they’re stumped. People often say, “I never thought about that.”

You’d think we’d be blind to our shortcomings, but it’s often the opposite. When that happens, I recommend simple approaches. If you can’t identify your strengths, take assessments. There’s no magic tool, but any assessment can provide a bit of language or a taxonomy to help people recognize what resonates with them.

Another option is to ask people close to you—family, colleagues—"What are three words you’d use to describe me?"

There’s also an interactive tool I really like, based on Johari’s window. You could do it manually, but I like using the online version because it auto-populates quickly.

The exercise is simple. You select from a bank of words—six words that best describe you—and then it populates in the Johari's Window, which is a self-awareness model. Then, you invite people—your neighbor, kids, colleagues, boss—depending on the purpose of the exercise. You ask them to select six words that describe you.

What you end up with is an output showing alignment: words you selected that others also selected, words others selected that you did not, and words you selected that no one else did. It’s typically a neutral-to-positive activity, generating interesting discussion.

I did it a few years ago with 46 participants, and there were a couple of words that everyone chose that I hadn’t. That’s notable, something to pay attention to.

There were also two words I selected that no one else chose. I don’t remember the second word, but one was "adaptable." My initial response was, "What? Nobody thinks I’m adaptable?"—which speaks to our brain’s negativity bias.

I've done this exercise with a lot of clients, and it’s low-risk, low-investment, but can lead to valuable insights.

Ashish Kothari: I love that, Karen. I hadn’t heard of that tool before. It’s brilliant and so simple—anyone can use it. We'll share a link in the show notes. It's playful, introspective, and insightful.

In terms of assessments, I’ve used Gallup or VIA Character Strengths—a great starting point to give people the language to understand their strengths.

But there’s another exercise I picked up from the Center for Positive Organizational Scholarship, called the Reflected Best Self exercise, by Monica Worline and Jane Dutton. It’s similar to the Johari window, but in this case, you nominate five or ten people to share stories about when they’ve seen you at your best.

Collecting these stories can be transformative, as it helps you identify common strengths that you might not even recognize in yourself. Often, we’re very aware of where we fall short, but blind to our strengths. I’ve had several clients do this exercise, and it’s been incredibly powerful.

Dr. Karen Doll: I love that. I’ve seen various modifications of that exercise, where you reflect on your own experiences or ask others for their reflections.

Ashish Kothari: Yes. Now, let’s switch to the second element of psychological fitness. You talk a lot about stress, particularly resilience in the face of stress.

Before we dive into how to address it, I want to understand from your research and your role at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program, what are you seeing as the biggest drivers behind the sharp rise in stress and burnout in organizations?

Dr. Karen Doll: I'm glad you didn’t ask me to define stress because that’s one of the hardest things to define! But to answer your question about the greatest stressors in the workplace—what I hear most is workload, demand-capacity imbalance, overexertion, and a lack of recovery or cultivation of calm.

There’s a lot of research on the risk factors of burnout, and I think it’s important to note that there’s shared accountability.

Workplace systems and infrastructure play a role—organizations are responsible for creating sustainable infrastructures and workloads for humans.

Managers and leaders also have a responsibility to create conditions where people can thrive. And, of course, we, as individuals, are responsible for our own mental health care.

Ashish Kothari: Yes. One of the most powerful quantifications I’ve seen comes from the MHI work published last year by Jackie and Barbara. They classified things into demands and enablers.

They found that when it came to holistic health, about 27% of health outcomes were driven by individual factors like demands and enablers. But when it came to burnout, only 3% was individual-based. Almost 73% of the factors driving burnout were organizational—related to the job or the team.

Dr. Karen Doll: Yes, they broke that down into levels of intervention for promoting health and preventing burnout.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. That’s why it’s so powerful and important. The models and programs we run are really impactful. We’re currently running a program with one of the top tech companies, and while they had tons of programs for those who were languishing or struggling, like employee assistance programs, they didn’t have anything focused on promoting flourishing.

There was a gap in proactively addressing the job and team levels, even though leadership skills at that level control 96% of how people show up and work. The focus was too much on helping those who were already burned out, rather than shaping work conditions to support flourishing.

Programs need to address work demands, workloads, and the madness of back-to-back meetings. We know from research how detrimental constant meetings are for our brains, yet we continue with these ineffective habits.

Dr. Karen Doll: It’s a universal problem. Every single person I work with faces that challenge, and we haven’t cracked the code on how to fully solve it. What stands out in the research, which is both astonishing and unsurprising, is how important the relationship with one’s manager is. That makes perfect sense, considering how much time we spend at work.

I recently conducted a workshop series with a company, and when I asked for feedback from managers, they said they found it terrifying. They felt a heavy responsibility. I tried to clarify—there’s shared accountability.

Managers aren’t responsible for anyone else’s mental health, but research doesn’t say managers have to be perfect. It just emphasizes having a healthy, positive relationship, and that’s actionable. Those skills can be developed to enhance workplace relationships.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. When you think about your own experience, it resonates. Most people leave their jobs because of their relationship with their manager. People don’t necessarily leave because they aren’t valued, but because of who isn’t making them feel valued.

Most aren’t waiting for appreciation from the CEO—they’re expecting it from their immediate supervisor. It's that relationship that matters most. Many leave due to a bad relationship with a manager, but I don’t believe there are many bad managers.

I believe there are a lot of unaware managers who don’t realize how they’re showing up and how small actions can create a better environment.

Dr. Karen Doll: Yes, most managers are well-intentioned, even ineffective ones. Often, there’s a gap between their intent and their impact.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. What you just said highlights how important it is for people to feel like they matter, not only in the world but in the workplace. It’s about belonging, and it’s an interesting mix—because we want to belong, but we also want to stand out, be special, and unique.

Dr. Karen Doll: Right. We all want to belong, but we also want to matter. That need for belonging never changes.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. You’ve also talked about meaning in your psychological fitness framework. Some leaders dismiss the importance of meaning at work, thinking that people are just there for a paycheck. They don’t see why they should care about providing meaning. But I always highlight how crucial it is. What’s your take on integrating meaning into work?

Dr. Karen Doll: I believe meaning and purpose blend together, though there are nuances. Meaning is essential for human motivation, well-being, and agency. It brings fulfillment, elevates us, makes us more productive, and adds vitality to our work.

Leaders should care about this because when people have a strong sense of meaning and purpose at work, they’re more effective and productive. It’s mutually beneficial—it’s better for the company and for the leaders if their people have that sense of meaning.

It also helps people stick around longer. In fact, purpose and meaning are antidotes to languishing, which is that feeling of emptiness or stagnation.

Ashish Kothari: I’m reminded of this beautiful quote by Nietzsche: “Those who have a why can survive anyhow.” There’s a lot we can endure if we have a deeper why. You can pay someone for their arms and legs, and yes, they’ll work.

But if you really want their heart and mind, you need to give them purpose—a why. And it doesn’t have to be an organizational why. Help them connect with their own why. What are they looking for in their job? It goes back to the manager. The best person to do this at scale is the manager.

I was reading in The Heart of Business by Hubert Joly about how he turned around Best Buy. He visited a store that consistently outperformed others in every dimension—sales, attrition, and more.

What set that store apart was the manager’s practice of checking in with employees every quarter. He’d ask, "What’s your why? What’s your biggest dream, and how can I help you achieve that dream here?"

Dr. Karen Doll: Just asking the question and creating the space shows that the manager cares.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. It’s magic. People want to matter, to make a difference, to be seen—not just as a tool or cog in the wheel, but as an integrated part of the system. In the absence of that, it shows up in performance.

Dr. Karen Doll: Absolutely. It significantly impacts how people show up and perform.

Ashish Kothari: So, Karen, could you share a case study of your work on building psychological fitness with clients? Walk us through the journey to give some inspiration to those who want to bring these skills into their organizations.

Dr. Karen Doll: Sure. I’ll speak to both individual and team examples. One individual case, which is representative of many high-achieving people I work with, involves a person with a lot of internal pressure and a strong inner critic.

This person had what he called "the Greenwich Housewife syndrome." He had it all—money, health, a significant other, family—but was still miserable. That realization caused him a lot of guilt and distress, driven by societal "shoulds."

We approached this from various angles, but the most helpful intervention was examining his core beliefs. We looked at the maladaptive thoughts he was having and worked on reframing them.

It involved challenging assumptions, practicing gratitude intentionally, and focusing on what was good—even when he didn’t feel like it. It was important to acknowledge his feelings, but also to help him understand that feelings are signals, not his entire reality.

It was a blend of building self-awareness, gaining emotional literacy, and understanding the mental models behind his thinking. Through manual practices like journaling and reframing thoughts repeatedly, he eventually started to experience moments where things felt different. His world hadn’t changed, but his perspective had.

Ashish Kothari: I love that. Have you done this with groups and teams? What’s that been like? There’s a lot of individual work we can do, but working within systems is critical.

Dr. Karen Doll: Absolutely. No matter what the growth area—whether it’s knitting, playing pickleball, or anything else—we learn best in community. Whether it's a team or a group of people, doing this work alongside each other accelerates and elevates the process.

That’s what I love most about facilitating these experiences. It’s not about me as the facilitator, it’s about the power of the group—how people support, accompany, and learn from one another. There’s gentle accountability in place.

The power of accompaniment and flourishing are two of my favorite concepts. Coaching, and managing people, is about accompanying one another. Managers aren’t supposed to have all the answers. There’s real power, healing, and growth in walking alongside one another and doing it together.

Ashish Kothari: Power, healing, growth, and wisdom. There’s so much wisdom we all hold, but we often don’t remember it or practice it. In groups, people hold each other accountable, and it helps integrate these learnings into their context.

It’s why I’m not a big fan of sending people to leadership programs on their own. They come back with an epiphany, but everyone else remains the same.

Within an hour, they’re back to old habits because the system around them hasn’t changed. Learning as a group allows for systemic integration.

Dr. Karen Doll: Exactly. When you work on these things together, it leads to system changes. We are all part of systems, whether it’s families or work teams.

Ashish Kothari: Karen, what are some personal practices that have become second nature for you to ensure you’re operating at your best?

Dr. Karen Doll: Thanks for asking. I’ll share my practices, though I wouldn’t say they’re all second nature yet. My number one practice, which is simple but hard, is physical exercise. If I go two days without it, I feel it in my mood—I get irritable. It’s absolutely necessary for managing my well-being.

In the last few years, I’ve made a lot of progress with gratitude. It doesn’t come naturally to me, but I practice it regularly. I’m always challenging myself to reflect on things I’m grateful for, whether it’s three things I loved about today, my favorite people, or other variations. It's not quite second nature, but it's getting there.

One of the most impactful things I’ve taken up recently is pickleball. It’s not a habit but a practice that has had a huge positive effect on my well-being. It’s collective—I'm playing with friends, my husband, my kids, and their friends.

It gives me exercise, helps me learn something new, and keeps me in flow. It's like a super practice because it ticks so many boxes: physical activity, social connection, and skill development. It’s been really fulfilling and energizing for me.

Ashish Kothari: I love those practices. It’s funny, with your first two, I have to admit we’re opposite. I used to be where gratitude was the last thing for me. As a consultant for 20 years, I was trained to find what’s not working.

You get really good at it—you can take the best organization and find all the problems. But that can lead to seeing the negatives everywhere. You bring that lens into everything.

So about seven or eight years ago, I started practicing gratitude, and it truly transformed me. We know the research and how our brain changes, and mine has. If I could see it physically, I would! It’s changed to the point where it’s now automatic.

For example, we were traveling through Europe, lost our bags—which had things from three months of travel—and my wife and son were understandably upset. But I was like, “Hey, people are losing their homes in the Ukraine-Russia conflict. We just lost some luggage; it’s replaceable.” When you start from that place, it changes everything.

However, physical exercise is a real struggle for me. I find all the reasons not to do it. Even today, I was running late but still went for a walk. It wasn’t much, but I got out for an hour. But it’s something I really have to push myself to do.

It’s funny you mentioned pickleball. My wife and I have talked about it. She loves tennis, and we play fine, but pickleball might be more fun. It could be a way to bring our friends into it because everyone seems to be getting into pickleball now.

Dr. Karen Doll: I fought it at first, thinking, “That’s so cliche,” but I don’t golf—another great social activity I don’t have time for right now. So, I highly encourage you to try it.

Ashish Kothari: I think we will! We have courts right around the block, so it’ll be easy to get started.

Dr. Karen Doll: As we’re recording this, yesterday was National Pickleball Day!

Ashish Kothari: There we go!

Dr. Karen Doll: A fake holiday, but I’m all about it!

Ashish Kothari: Well, Karen, this was such a wonderful conversation. You’re doing such important, beautiful work, and I’m so grateful to know you. I’m excited to continue our friendship, collaborate, and bring meaningful things into the world. Thank you, it’s been such a joy to talk with you.

Dr. Karen Doll: Thank you for all the work you’re doing. I have your book right here, all marked up. I love the synchrony we share, and I agree—we can continue to do great things together.

Ashish Kothari: Amazing. Be well and have a lovely weekend, Karen.

Dr. Karen Doll: Thank you.

Ashish Kothari: Cheers.