Why Workplace Well-being Should Be A Strategic Priority with Jen Fisher

Ashish Kothari: Jen, it's so lovely to have you with us on the Happiness Squad Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Jen Fisher: Absolutely. It is so good to finally be here. It's been a long time coming, but here we are.

Ashish Kothari: We've been talking for a long while—almost two, two and a half years—because we've been on a similar path. Your story really resonated with me, especially what you care about. You were the Chief Wellbeing Officer at Deloitte, and I was leading at McKinsey before I decided to leave. Now, you've just left Deloitte and are starting something of your own.

u started at Deloitte in June: 2001

How did you, a consultant who joined Deloitte, end up becoming their Chief Wellbeing Officer and dedicating your life to this topic?

id, I joined Deloitte in June: 2001

Marketing is a valuable skill when you're in the wellbeing field because you need to convince people they need what you're offering. I began in marketing, working directly with many of our businesses and industries on their marketing and communications plans, both internally and externally.

After several years, I was tapped to work with our then Chief Operating Officer as his Chief of Staff. He later became the CEO, and I stayed in that role for several years until he left the organization. At that point, I returned to marketing.

The truth is, by that time, I was burnt out. With all the knowledge I had about the firm's inner workings, people kept asking me what I wanted to do next, and I honestly had no idea. I felt like I didn’t know who I was.

As Chief of Staff, I had spent so much time focusing on what someone else needed that I had lost sight of my own needs and goals. That’s just part of the role, but looking back, I would probably approach it differently now.

When I returned to marketing, I was working directly for the Chief Marketing Officer at Deloitte. One day, during a meeting, she said to me, “You’re struggling. You need to take some time off from work.” That moment hit me hard. I realized I wasn’t showing up as well as I thought I was.

Her words were a wake-up call. At first, I processed them as failure, thinking I wasn’t good enough or didn’t belong. But that wasn’t what she meant at all. She was telling me to take advantage of the firm’s benefits, focus on my health, and get myself back to a good place. She saw something in me that I couldn’t see in myself at the time. She wanted to help me move from burnout to a thriving life and career.

I didn’t recognize it in the moment, but she was right. I took her advice, stepped away from work, and focused on getting healthy. I was dealing with anxiety and depression, so I worked on my mental health and its connection to my physical health.

That time off reignited my passion for health and wellbeing. The reason I say that is, growing up, I was an athlete, and I always made time to exercise, no matter how busy I was. But through this process of struggling with my mental health, I realized wellbeing wasn’t just about getting to the gym for an hour a day.

As a matter of fact, there's probably some days where going to the gym for an hour that day was the worst thing that I probably could have done for myself. I needed to do something else to take better care of myself. Perhaps get more sleep or do some meditation or spend time with friends and family.

This experience opened my eyes to a broader understanding of wellbeing, especially in the workplace. It struck me how little we were talking about it and how much we needed to. But when you’re struggling you’ll feel like you had to go through it all alone.

When I returned to work, I told that same leader who remains a dear friend and mentor, and I told her that I thought I was going to resign. I really had reignited this passion that I wanted to help people avoid burnout and find meaning and purpose in their career. She said to me, “You’re not going anywhere. If you need this, others do too.”

I tell this story because that’s the kind of leader we all need to be with, and the kind of leader that we all want. Somebody that sees who we are, believes in our potential, creates that path, and creates that runway. And so I really do give her credit for having this vision that I couldn't see.

I know I wanted to focus on health and wellbeing and helping people, but I didn't think I could do it in the four walls of Deloitte because we had great benefits and resources for people, but there wasn't an existing role. And I had no idea that I could create a role for myself until somebody told me “Put together your business case, and let me see how I can help you, and let's see how we can get this done.”

And so that's what I did. You know, she created this space for me. She said, put together, spend some time, put together this business case and let's review it. I did that with her, and then I was able to meet with our CEO and our Chief Talent Officer at the time. And I got really lucky because they all bought into it really quickly.

But the important thing there is for leaders: perhaps leaders that are struggling with making well-being a strategic priority. There's still, unfortunately, this belief that well-being and high performance are mutually exclusive. And the truth is that well-being fuels high performance, especially inside of organizations like Deloitte or organizations that are kind of hard-charging and high-performing.

Without well-being, you're truly sub optimizing everything that the organization stands for, but especially your bottom line. So we'll get into more about me, but that's the origins of my story and how I got into the role at Deloitte of Chief Well-being Officer.

Ashish Kothari: I love your story, Jen—how you transitioned from marketing and chief of staff to focusing on wellbeing. You built a strong business case for that role, not just for yourself, but to support others.

I can’t think of a better place than consulting to make that kind of impact. I spent 17 years at McKinsey, and in consulting, people are your most critical asset. Clients expect us to be at our cognitive best—not necessarily our physical best, but emotionally and cognitively sharp.

If there’s any industry where wellbeing directly impacts performance, it’s consulting. It’s fantastic that you had the chance to hone, learn, and practice this. You even co-wrote Work Better Together, highlighting how wellbeing isn’t a “nice to have” but a “must have” for any thriving organization.

Tell me more about the research you did and why you believe wellbeing should be a critical focus for organizations.

Jen Fisher: Absolutely, it should be. As you said, if you employ human beings, you have to care about their wellbeing. It can’t be a “nice to have”. If people are struggling, disengaged, or unwell, it directly impacts the organization.

Our book, Work Better Together, focuses on relationships and having friends at work. If we don’t support this, we’re heading down an unsustainable path. Burnout and disengagement rates are alarmingly high, in many ways worse than they’ve ever been, and there’s probably many reasons for that as the data shows, but we’re at a pivotal moment.

The pandemic, in some ways, brought a silver lining to workplace wellbeing, because we were all standing on the same ground. It stripped away the coping mechanisms we relied on pre-pandemic—whether healthy or unhealthy—and forced everyone to confront their struggles on an even playing field.

We need to do more to support all people, because everybody was realizing and recognizing that they were struggling. Not just certain populations or certain people in the workplace.

That pandemic experience created an opportunity for business leaders to invest in supporting their people. Subsequently, leaders started having real conversations and making these investments, allowing personal and professional lives to coincide in more vulnerable, accepted ways that perhaps would’ve never showed up before in our offices.

Sadly though, where we are at right now, wellbeing is at risk. Many organizations are pulling back on these investments, because a lot of the things that were done during the pandemic while they were well-intended are just not having the impact that leaders believe that they would have.

Some are starting to believe there’s not an ROI on it. Others don’t know what to do. My response is that this isn’t a sign to walk away from well-being—it’s a signal that it’s more important than ever, but there’s an “and”.

We need the right programs, tools, and resources. That's foundational. That's almost non-negotiable for thriving businesses, but what we have yet to unlock and to really solve is the “and”.

We know that the things that are significantly impacting people's well-being at work is not the fact that they don't have a meditation app. It's that they're overworked, overwhelmed, there’s lack of clarity, and disconnection from purpose are the real culprits. Relationships in the workplace are deteriorating because everything has become so task-oriented.

These are the types of things that are really eroding well-being at work, and they're more related to flow of work and design of work versus just the tools and resources. People don't take advantage of the tools and resources, because if you're overwhelmed and overworked, how do you have time to take advantage of a meditation app?

Ashish Kothari: I think we are so aligned here. I talk a lot around this notion of the work that we're doing now. I completely understand the pullback from well being; in fact, that's the first thing I often tell clients.

My colleagues at McKinsey published this research where 97% of the drivers of burnout are all around job team organizations. 72% of well-being is around the design of jobs, teams, and organizations. It's not about individuals. And Barbara, who I’ve worked very closely with, always says that you can't yoga your way out of this crisis, which is what most well-being programs are doing.

So we're doing some work with Google right now, and even if you think about that organization, a big chunk of their work is around EAP, which is if people are struggling, I want to make sure we support them. And then, the rest of it is all around the individual, but nothing is about proactively shaping and changing work where flourishing becomes integrated into how we work.

Jen Fisher: I talk about it as an outcome.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. And that’s why most programs show zero ROI. So my pitch to most organizations is: you absolutely should cut your well-being programs and reinvest those dollars in programs that will actually change work.

Implicitly, there is another pivot here, which is, instead of having a well-being program be a benefit, like “split the pie,” which is Alex Edmans’ work approach, let's actually make it every leader's responsibility, not just the HR benefits, Chief Well-being Officer.

Let's give them the skills and the tools they need to change work and engage with their teams almost on a monthly basis. So we actually move the needle on this thing.

Jen Fisher: Absolutely. That is the only way to move the needle. Throwing more money at tools and programs isn’t the answer. Employees don’t need you to schedule a yoga class for them—they’re more than capable of doing that themselves. What they do need is sustainable work and work environments so they can go to their yoga class or take care of themselves.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. As Deloitte’s Chief Wellbeing Officer, what were some of the well-benig strategies you implemented that started to make a difference? And what didn’t work as well as expected?

Jen Fisher: That’s a great question, especially given what we’ve just discussed. While I do think there’s an opportunity to stop investing in certain programs and redirect that investment into redesigning work, it’s important to recognize that there’s a maturity curve. Organizations need to start somewhere.

One of the first things we did at Deloitte was to create a common language and framework for wellbeing. It sounds simple, but defining what wellbeing means in your organization is crucial.

What does it look like?

What can employees expect?

How does it align with the type of work being done?

For example, at Deloitte, we have four distinct businesses, including audit and tax, which have busy seasons.

Wellbeing during those periods looks very different. It’s important to acknowledge that and communicate it clearly. People need to know what to expect—when they’ll face intense workloads and when things will normalize. When there’s clarity and an end in sight, people can rise to the occasion.

We started by creating that language and clarity. Brené Brown says, "Clear is kind," and that applies here. You also need a strong foundation of programs and tools. While you can’t "self-care" your way out of a toxic work environment, individuals still have a responsibility to take care of themselves. We all need to set boundaries, ask for what we need, and seek out support.

That said, even the best self-care can’t counteract a toxic environment. If the organization’s culture and work design are constantly toxic, it undoes all the effort an individual puts into their wellbeing. This is where the "and" comes into play—you need both individual responsibility and organizational change.

For organizations earlier in their wellbeing journey, it’s about building the culture and permission for employees to prioritize wellbeing. People need to feel safe talking about it and know they won’t be perceived as lazy, less committed, or self-focused.

Ashish Kothari: Or weak.

Jen Fisher: Exactly. That resonates with my own story.

Ashish Kothari: I'm weak. Like if I get sick, I have no problem talking about it and asking for help, right? And you, in your case, you had a cancer scare and you kind of went through and did it.

We're very comfortable talking about it when we are physically okay, but when we are struggling mentally in organizations, or even in our day-to-day life, somehow we have this huge stigma where if we are struggling mentally, we're weak, we're defective.

Jen Fisher: Yes, and the truth is, we all struggle mentally. We all do. It’s part of the human condition. So welcome to the club.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, and even more so now, right? In my book Hardwired for Happiness, I talk about how the original title was From Fear to Freedom: A Journey from Within to Live Your Best Life.

What I was really addressing is how our external world has become more volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Just look at what we’re dealing with now—election season, for instance—and our fear circuits are constantly activated.

We’re becoming increasingly hardwired this way. Unless we consciously choose to normalize and shift, this is the path we’ll remain on. Everyone’s struggling, and it’s critical to address this. I love what you said.

Jen Fisher: To your point, you’ve obviously watched and listened to my TEDx talk. That’s the whole point of the talk: I struggled with burnout and was also diagnosed with cancer, both of which happened while I was in the workplace.

When someone has cancer, you don’t tell them, “Finish your work, and you can rest over the weekend.” You say, “Do what you need to do. I’ve got your back. Let me know how I can help.” But when someone says they’re overwhelmed or think they might be burned out, the response is often, “Let’s just finish this project, and then you can take a vacation.”

It doesn’t work that way. A vacation doesn’t heal burnout—that’s not the work that needs to be done. Burnout is tricky because it isn’t a formal medical diagnosis like depression or anxiety, though it shares many of the same symptoms and is often linked to both. Despite this, we still question it.

We wonder if it’s valid, if it’s real. But it’s absolutely real—more than half of the workforce says they’re experiencing it.

Anyway, I might have lost the thread there, but it was a good conversation.

Ashish Kothari: So, Jen, what were three initiatives you launched in your role that had the highest impact—things other leaders on this journey should learn from?

Jen Fisher: Yeah. So, they all kind of blur together. The first one was obviously the launch of the program itself. If you’re at the beginning, it does need to be programmatic because it needs to be housed in something that people feel like they can point to, relate to, and have clarity about what it is.

I completely agree with you that wellbeing should not—and is not—a benefit. But it can start as a program. I very rarely talk about it as a benefit because wellbeing shouldn’t be a benefit. Wellbeing should be an outcome of well-designed work.

What was super impactful for us at Deloitte was an ambassador program that we created and engaged our workforce in. We didn’t set out to create this ambassador program, but what we realized midway through my journey in the role, was that there were a whole lot of people in the organization who were passionate about wellbeing.

Many of them were doing incredible things outside of their work and outside of the workday. We thought, “Wow, if we could harness that and use it as a resource for us…” because we were a really small team inside a giant organization.

When you’re trying to change culture, you need a whole lot of people helping you. I was never going to be able to grow the team to a thousand or thousands of people. So, it was about how to harness that passion.

Once we were able to put some structure around it—we called them our “Wellbeing Wizards,” and they’re still called that today—we provided them with guidance, training, and a community, almost like an ERG, if you will, and then we let them loose.

The beauty in doing that, when you’re thinking about culture change, is you’re telling all these people, “Go out and do this in your teams. Go out and do this in your office.”

That checks the permission box, but it’s also telling people, “Hey, I know you’re passionate about this in your personal life. I know you’ve studied meditation or yoga or whatever it is. And now we’re giving you the permission to bring that to work. We’re recognizing it. We’re giving you credit for it. We see you. We know this is important to you.”

That is such a powerful—and, by the way, really cheap—initiative. You’re not spending money on a giant technology platform. I used to call them our “human technology platform.” They were the ones out in the world doing this stuff. It was so powerful.

Without that group of people—and it grew from 100 to 600 to thousands by the time I left—it wouldn’t have had the same impact. I was also very lucky to have support from the top.

The younger workforce, by far, is saying, “This is non-negotiable for us. I’m not going to work at an organization that doesn’t care about my wellbeing.” Meanwhile, those of us in the middle, like myself, are thinking, “Wait, can we really ask for these things?” We just kind of accepted that work is the way it was.

So, I think learning from that younger generation was really impactful. Where we are now is recognizing that we also need to be having real conversations about solving the problems of work. We need to listen to one another. I see a lot of finger-pointing going on, but we can get to that later. That was incredibly impactful as a program to shift culture and mindset.

To add a third thing, before I left Deloitte, we had started to go down this path of not a rebranding of wellbeing, but a broader look at what we were calling “human sustainability.” This was about what truly matters to human beings at work—things like belonging, inclusion, and wellbeing.

What are the true human aspects of work and the things people need and look for? If employees feel they get that from their organization, they see it as value-added. Learning and development is another example.

We also looked at how to string all of these things together—things like climate change and working for an organization that supports sustainability. How do you tie these elements into a broader framework that adds value to your workforce as human beings?

Not as people who are going to work harder and longer hours because you’re doing these things for them, but by creating a more virtuous cycle. It’s about saying, “Yes, you work for me, and I pay you, but as an organization, I also have an obligation to make people and society better.”

It’s this broader view of how to move the needle from wellbeing being solely the responsibility of the individual to a more holistic, value-added, virtuous cycle between people, organizations, and the societies and communities in which they operate.

That’s still being developed and figured out, but it’s the next horizon. I’m really proud to have been part of the beginnings of that.

Ashish Kothari: I love that. For the listeners, there are so many beautiful nuggets here. First, ask yourself a question—and if the answer is no, do something about it: Is wellbeing at your organization predominantly a benefit, or is it a core part of the strategy?

The markers of wellbeing as a benefit are things like being invited to wellbeing expert calls, having an app, or an EAP. But nobody’s checking in weekly or monthly to ask, “How are you?” This idea of wellbeing as part of the strategy is important.

You can use the research—we’ll put it in the notes. Here’s the ROI: two to three-and-a-half percent higher shareholder returns year-over-year versus competitors, 30 to 50 percent higher shareholder value. There’s no other strategy that delivers this level of impact while amplifying the effectiveness of every other strategy.

So, the first step is to have that conversation: Is well-being a benefit, or is it how we get the best out of our teams? Use the data to support it.

Second, it’s important to have a program, launch it, and talk about it. When you legitimize the conversation around well being—physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual—you make it okay. If someone talks about struggling, it doesn’t mean they’re weak.

If someone is struggling, they’re only giving you 30 to 40 percent of what you’re paying them. It’s not about the hours they work—it’s about the output. Leaders have a financial and fiduciary responsibility to take action.

Humans don’t come with a meter on their heads that says, “I’m red.” Someone may look fine on the outside but be one step away from a breakdown. Programs can help people understand what wellbeing means and how to assess where they are.

If you already have a program, relaunch it. Put it front and center and say, “It’s okay to talk about this.”

The third is scaling. It reminds me of the GPS model at Google or how McKinsey scaled programs like Search Inside Yourself. Even though it’s been two years since I left McKinsey, I still use examples from my time there—I loved the firm.

There are people who care deeply about this. That’s where ambassadors come in. I love your concept of Wellbeing Wizards. Let’s celebrate them and let them play that role within the organization. Many people don’t find meaning in their day-to-day work, but they find this kind of work meaningful. If you let them do it, they’ll stick around longer and have a greater impact.

Jen Fisher: 100 percent. What we also found is that when you have people doing this on a team or within an office, we all look to each other to understand the accepted behaviors and norms. Can I do this? Should I do this? When you see someone doing it, you think, “Oh, Jen’s doing it. That means I can do it too. I can find my own path.” This further amplifies the permission and cultural acceptance to say, “Yes, this is okay here.”

Ashish Kothari: So, Jen, I have to ask you this. Consulting, accounting, venture capital, private equity, and banking aren’t exactly known for promoting wellbeing, given the hours people work and the travel involved. When you rolled this out, what resistance, if any, did you face? Did people say, “That’s great, but I have a business to run, a practice to manage, and projects to deliver”?

Jen Fisher: Yep, there was a lot of that. I broke it into three buckets.

The first bucket was people who were all in. They got it and, in some way, were already figuring it out or living their lives this way, but weren’t necessarily talking about it because it wasn’t an accepted behavior or norm. They were doing it quietly.

The second bucket was people who believed in it and understood the need but didn’t know how it would come to life or what it would mean. They would ask things like, “If Jen goes to yoga at three o’clock and I need her at 3:15, what do I do?” My response was, “Jen will be back at four. None of this work is so urgent that it can’t wait 45 minutes.”

This ties into my burnout story. I used to exhibit the same behavior—like when my husband would come into my home office, and I’d wave him off, saying, “I’m too busy to talk right now.” Who is that person? Is that really who we want to be? We often convince ourselves that our work is so important that no one else could possibly understand it.

We need to break away from that mindset. You start small and show people what it looks like. You show them that the world isn’t going to end, and, in fact, over time, you’ll see increased engagement. People will be happier, more engaged, and their work will improve. When people feel good and are cognitively prepared, they want to do more, and they can do more.

The problem is that we’re often stuck in, “What does this mean for me right now?” That’s the problem of our world: leaders want immediate results. They roll out a meditation app or similar initiatives and expect magic to happen. But these things take time. Just like we have long-term financial, operational, and technical plans, we need long-term people plans that go beyond just headcount reductions.

The second bucket was where we spent most of our time because these people wanted to get there but needed help understanding how.

The third bucket was people who weren’t interested. They had the mindset of, “The firm didn’t do this for me when I was coming up, so others should struggle and suffer too.” I decided not to waste time trying to convince them because they didn’t want to understand.

There’s an old quote about banging your head against a wall, and that’s how it felt with that group. You just have to accept that there will always be naysayers when you’re doing this kind of work. We focused on the middle bucket and leveraged the people in the first bucket to help us move them forward.

Ashish Kothari: It’s interesting, and for your colleagues or anyone else listening, this was an insight I had when I was leading teams and doing this work. As I mentioned, I initially grew up in operations and spent 10 years working on large-scale transformation projects—in factories, with procurement, and so on.

If you’re working with humans in professions like consulting, accounting, venture capital, banking, or call centers—any field where humans are the core asset—think about it this way:

If you were running a machine, and on day one, it produced 80 parts with 1% quality errors—maybe one faulty part—you’d be fine. But on day two, if the machine produced 70 parts with two faulty parts, and on day three, 60 parts with five faults, and by day four, 50 parts with 10 faults, you wouldn’t accept that. You’d take action immediately.

Yet, in these professions, we often don’t address similar issues when it comes to people. I noticed this in my own teams, and we made changes. For example, one of the policies we instituted was that nobody flies on Monday morning. If we needed to be somewhere on Monday, we’d fly Sunday night.

Why? Because if you’re waking up at 4 or 5 a.m., rushing to catch a flight, and half-sleeping on the plane, by 12 p.m., you’re already operating at 50%. Even if it’s 70%, you’re not at your best. Then you work late into the night, and the pattern continues:

You start seeing the quality of work and ideas decline as the week progresses. People aren’t sleeping enough, they’re staying up late, consuming caffeine to stay awake, and their sleep cycles are disrupted. Tasks take longer to complete, more mistakes are made, and emotional regulation suffers. They misread client signals, become irritable with each other, and by Thursday, they’re completely burned out.

I thought, “This is crazy. I would never accept this in a physical factory. Why are we accepting it in a human factory?”

This led to reframing how we approached these issues. If our output depends on our human assets—and that’s what clients are paying for—then we need to ensure they’re at their best. You can run a machine 24/7, but if your quality is low, it's taking things longer. That means treating their wellbeing as a critical part of the system.

At McKinsey, we studied this in detail and launched a program called The Way We Work. One of the components was the team barometer. Every month, teams would assess their working conditions—how many hours they worked, how much sleep they got, how they were feeling—and have open dialogues about it.

We found clear correlations: when teams flourished, client impact was higher, client experience was better, and individual performance improved. This wasn’t a “nice to have.” It was essential.

If a team was in the red for four weeks, a senior leader would get a call saying, “This team is struggling, and it’s putting the firm at risk. Let’s figure out what’s going on. Is the work over-scoped? Are you dealing with a difficult client? What support do you need, and how can we fix this?”

Jen Fisher: And that’s so important because the way you just described it is we do need to hold leaders accountable, but it’s not about using a carrot and stick approach.

We’re not holding them accountable by saying, “What’s going on with your team? We’re here to beat you over the head.” It’s more, “What’s going on with your team? How can we help you now that we have this information and data?”

I also love to think of it as identifying the barriers in the way of getting work done. For example, your Monday morning flights—that’s a barrier. If that’s the norm, if that’s the expectation, it becomes a barrier because, as you said, it’s what’s required, and people show up not at their best.

As leaders, we need to step back, identify those barriers, and ask, “Why do we need to travel on Monday morning? Do we need to travel at all anymore in this environment?” Sometimes the answer is yes; sometimes it’s no.

But it feels like we’re in a place where we know the way things are isn’t working, yet instead of moving forward, we want to go back to how things were before because we think that things were better before. But were they really? Or did we just accept them and find different coping mechanisms?

It feels like we’re stuck, saying, “This isn’t working, so let’s go back,” instead of saying, “No, we need to find a new way forward.” And we already know what that new way forward looks like. So, what’s stopping us from moving in that direction?

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, and I’d even say there’s no going back. It’s like the river analogy—you never cross the same river twice because you’re not the same, and the river’s not the same.

Jen Fisher: Exactly.

Ashish Kothari: You can choose to try going back, but the external environment is not the same.

Jen Fisher: It’s not the same. Nostalgia just hits differently. We think it was better than it really was.

Ashish Kothari: It’s interesting because, in some ways, I do think it was better before. People are struggling more now. But going back won’t make it better—it’ll make it worse.

Jen Fisher: It’s not going to fix it.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. It’s not going to fix it. It’ll make it worse.

So, looking at the clock, there’s a whole section I’d love to dive into on connection—it’s such an important topic and at the heart of your book. I’d love to have you back for that.

But before we wrap up, Jen, you’ve had a high-pressure career. You’ve dealt with burnout, gone through cancer, and navigated so much. You’re not someone who’s had it easy, but you’ve found a way to make it work.

As my last question, what are three or four non-negotiables you’ve adopted in your new way of operating? What would you invite our listeners to try for themselves? They might not know if it works for them until they try. So, what are those non-negotiables that are now part of your regimen?

Jen Fisher: Number one, the biggest lesson I learned—and unfortunately, it took cancer to teach me this—was boundaries. The importance and power of boundaries. For people who are high performers and have a strong sense of obligation to others, there’s often this feeling of, “I don’t want to let anyone down, so I’ll just say yes to everything,” without recognizing the personal impact.

I try to talk about boundaries now, and so many others have said this too: when you say no to something, you’re saying yes to something else. Hopefully, you’re saying yes to yourself.

People often think boundaries are a bad thing, but they’re not. Boundaries can be flexible. It can be a “No, I can't do it right now, but here's the six other times that I can do it.” It goes back to, we just need to ask what we need, that in itself is a boundary—giving other options.

It can mean, “I can’t do this right now, but here are six other times I can.” And most of the time, one of the six other times that you can do it work just as well as the time that the person was asking you.

Most of the time, one of those alternatives works just as well for the other person. It comes down to asking for what we need. That in itself is a boundary—offering other options like, “I can’t do this right now, but I can when I free up from this project.”

Boundaries have become really important to me. They take courage and an understanding of yourself—of what you need. It requires that kind of internal work.

Another big one for me is sleep. I don’t negotiate my sleep away. My husband even takes the car keys now when we go to a party or a friend’s house because I’ve been known to get up, get in the car, and leave while he’s still talking to everyone. I’ll text him, “Find your own ride home—I’m in bed.”

Sleep is the number one performance enhancer. If you start prioritizing quality and quantity of sleep, you’ll feel like a completely different person. If there’s one takeaway from this podcast, it’s this: get better sleep. We all need it.

For me, exercise is also a non-negotiable. It looks different every day, but since I live with anxiety, skipping movement is not an option. On days when I think it’s a good idea not to go for a walk or get to the gym—even if it’s just getting outside for 30 minutes—my anxiety is sky high. Movement helps me manage my mental health in a really powerful way.

So, boundaries, sleep, and movement or exercise are my three non-negotiables.

Ashish Kothari: I love those. Jen, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for the amazing work you’re doing and for this shared path we get to walk in these second-mountain journeys of ours—to create a better world, be a part of healing, and fix the way we work so we can achieve better outcomes for ourselves and for everyone.

Jen Fisher: Absolutely. I truly believe it’s possible. We can get there if we all work on it together. Thanks for having me today. I’m 100 percent up for part two, so just let me know when.

Ashish Kothari: Awesome. Thank you, my friend.