Reclaiming Your Life by Choosing Happiness with Dr. Elia Gourgouris

Ashish Kothari: Hi, my dear friend, it is so lovely to have you with us on this Happiness Squad Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: My pleasure.

Ashish Kothari: So, Elia, you are known as America's Happiness Doctor. I'd like you to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, how you got that name, and what experiences in your life led you to dedicate yourself to helping people be happier and more resilient.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Ashish, it's a pleasure to be on your show. Thanks for having me, first of all. I was born a long time ago in Athens, Greece, and my family moved to Santa Monica in Southern California when I was 10 years old.

The biggest reason for that move, among others, was my mom, who is the most amazing human I have ever met to this day. She was beloved by everyone because she was pure love—unconditional love and acceptance—and made everybody feel that way.

Unfortunately, she got cancer, and back in the day, cancer was a death sentence in Greece. She had a radical mastectomy. My parents had actually lived in Los Angeles prior to that, so they decided to emigrate again. That move really prolonged her life.

For my brother and me, it was a huge benefit because we got to have her during our teenage years. Unfortunately, eventually, she succumbed just as I had graduated from UCLA, and my brother had gotten his master's from UCLA.

She was too sick to come to our graduation, so we went to the hospital to see her, dressed in cap and gown. She was beaming with pride, and she turned to both of us and said, "This is what I've lived for. I know you guys are going to be okay." Her life ended about six months later.

But her passing was pivotal to my happiness. I know it sounds strange, but on her deathbed, the last thing she told me was, "My boy, don't worry about me. I'm going to be just fine. I just want you to be happy." These were her parting words to me. She went into a coma and died within 24 to 48 hours later.

For me, I was a mama's boy—I admit it. I was so close to my mom. I think on some level, I knew that I wouldn't have her for the rest of my life. Every moment, every day, every week, every year that I got to spend with her on this earth was a blessing.

But of course, once she passed away, my dad, who was in love with my mom for 35 years, started drinking even more. So I kind of lost him even though he was alive. He wasn't really present, you know what I mean? And my older brother went off and did his own thing in his own grief.

So, my beautiful family—it's like someone threw a grenade into it, and my whole life imploded. It blew up completely, going from as good as you can have it to nothing.

Ashish Kothari: So much loss and loneliness, and just complete disconnection. I can imagine how hard it must have been. And how old were you then, Elia?

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: I was 22 when she passed away. But, you know, back then, we didn't have grief counseling. There was nobody. So I went from this huge support system to almost nothing.

For the first year after she passed away, I was trying to make ends meet. I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. I really didn't want to get out of bed every morning. It was a struggle, which is very unusual for me because I'm typically a happy, go-lucky person.

But honestly, the grief was too much. Not that I would take my life, but I was like, "If I get hit by a bus today, I'm okay. I get to be with my mom at least," because thinking about living the next 50, 60, 70 years without my mom on this planet was unthinkable to me.

It was a struggle the first year, but something interesting happened on the one-year anniversary. Anniversaries are tough when we're talking about grief and loss, especially the first year. I remembered her words, "Don't worry about me. I just want you to be happy."

Literally, something snapped in my brain. It's like, almost like—I swear to you—it felt like I somehow created a new neuropathway in my brain, thinking, "You know what? The best way to honor my mom is to live a happy life. This is what she wanted."

So I leaned into that. My trajectory changed after that. Instead of feeling sorry for myself and focusing on the loss, I thought, "No better way to honor my mom than to live a great and happy life."

That's when I decided to go back to graduate school to get my PhD in psychology. The first half of my career, I was a clinical psychologist in private practice, thriving, loving it—full practice, people on a waitlist, all word-of-mouth.

Until I got burned out. The signs of burnout were all over the place. And I was stubborn, so I ignored them. Guess what happens when you ignore those signs?

Ashish Kothari: It's an important point because we had Dr. Neha Sangwan, who's a doctor that does a lot of work around burnout. The same story. This is something many people don't realize, even those who specialize in this work.

When we're going through that phase, accumulating burnout, it happens suddenly with a complete collapse. Along the way, you're suffering, but you feel like you can get through anything. We're totally fine with our bodies.

If we get tired, we sleep. If we feel exhausted, we rest. But somehow, when it comes to mental work, we push ourselves to do crazy things. We just have caffeine and keep going until we hit a wall, and then it's too late.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: When I retired, I realized through some research that the typical psychologist, therapist, or counselor, if they see 20 to 25 patient hours a week, that's considered full-time.

The average burnout time is around ten years. I did it for 18 years, seeing 45 patient hours a week, back-to-back with no breakfast or lunch, working like a maniac.

My wife would say, "Honey, you're going to have a heart attack." And I was arrogant, saying, "No, I can handle it." And I did for 16 years until my body began to break down. When you're in physical pain, like emotional or mental pain, at some point, it brings you to your knees.

Because I'm a spiritual person, it literally brought me down to my knees one time. I was in so much pain, and I asked, "Why is this happening to me? I'm trying to be a good husband, father, and help as many people as I can." The answer came instantly: "Elia, I'm trying to take you in a different direction, and you're not listening to me."

That was it. Rather than paying attention, I ignored it. Why? For a variety of reasons. I was afraid—what would I do with my life? I was a good provider, making a good income. I liked being "the doc."

So, what happens when you ignore that voice? You can call it the spirit, that still small voice, your intuition, or your higher self. I don't care what you call it; listen to it. In my experience, every time I've heard that voice and acted on it, it's always worked out.

But in this case, I ignored it. So, when you ignore that voice, does your life get better or worse? Way worse, very quickly.

Things got really bad fast. Six more months went by, and I was really struggling, in and out of the emergency room. They were doing all kinds of tests but couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. My pain wasn't psychosomatic; it was real.

Now, six months later, I'm desperate. It's impacting me weekly, multiple times a week. I'm doubled over in stomach pain. Back to asking, "Why is this happening to me?" The answer was more direct: "I told you already, I'm trying to take you in a different direction, and you're not listening. I want you to spread the light to more people, not just one-on-one therapy."

Because I was still iffy about it, the voice added, "If you don't change your ways, I'm going to call you home by the time you're 50." My mom died at 51, so the idea of 50 hit me hard. I remember going upstairs and telling my wife, "I have to end this."

Reluctantly, very reluctantly, I began closing my practice. It's not easy—there are legal purposes and other considerations. About nine months later, I stopped taking new referrals and worked with existing clients to get them to a certain point.

I was almost retired, just two months away, when my body completely collapsed. I ended up in the hospital, had a couple of surgeries, and had major complications.

I asked my surgeon, "Why did this happen to me? I need to learn this lesson. I never want to be in this place again." He said, "That's easy—either excessive drinking or excessive stress."

I didn't drink much, so for 18 years and tens of thousands of hours, I held inside all the toxicity shared with me, which I couldn't share with anyone due to confidentiality. It started eating me alive. I made a commitment: never again.

This will never happen to me again. And that was my turning point. I switched to the corporate side, started doing executive coaching, leadership training, development, writing books, and I love it.

Ashish Kothari: I love it. So, my friend, so true, right? There is so much in the story you're sharing. Three things stand out. Number one, we often recognize these truths at our dying moments. Your mom lived a beautiful life, but there are three things I want to echo for our listeners before we get into your book.

First, almost everyone in their last moments wishes they had allowed themselves to be happy and let others be happy too.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Yes.

Ashish Kothari: Just be happy, right? This notion of allowing and choosing happiness is something evident in the "Five Regrets of the Dying" and in your mom's words. It's something we should not regret.

Choose happiness rather than pursue it. Choose versus pursue—don't chase it, or you'll end up unhappy. That was a beautiful parting gift from her, and a beautiful honor that you gave her by acting on it. So, that's number one.

The second big point, as Elia said from his own experience—he's a clinical psychologist trained in this stuff, right? He should know better about stress, mental wellbeing, physical wellbeing. He's helped so many people, yet he didn't see the signs of burnout. There are three signs of burnout from a clinical, medical perspective:

First, you are exhausted. Second, you experience higher cynicism towards your work or life—nothing's going to change, it doesn't matter. Third, it takes you longer to do things—your effectiveness and efficacy go down physically and mentally.

Look for those signs, and if you find yourself in that state, seek help, seek professional help, and make dramatic changes in what you're doing because you don't want to end up where Elia ended up.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: No, you don't. And that's why I shared the story. I'm not proud of it, but it's a true story. It's the old "physician, heal thyself." I was taking care of everyone else, but I wasn't taking care of me.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: It's really important.

Ashish Kothari: And number three is don't convince yourself that if you're serving others, you won't burn out. Many people think the way to happiness is to find more meaning. No, the way to happiness is a much more holistic thing.

And I want to get into that with Elia because he wrote about it in his book. It's not just service. In fact, people in non-profits and healing work often experience more burnout and stress than those in the for-profit world.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: That's such a great point because that was my default—"I'm helping people, I'm helping humanity, I'm saving lives." That was my rationalization for not wanting to quit. Plus, I'm not a quitter. That's another thing—I don't quit. If it kills me, I just don't quit.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. Somehow we convince ourselves, especially in the non-profit world. I've talked to so many people, and they say, "I'm willing to suffer because I'm helping others." You don't need to suffer to help others. If you choose to, that's fine, but you don't have to. In fact, if you are suffering, you're helping others less because you're not at your fullest potential.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Right. And the funny thing is, Ashish, I'm not into suffering at all. I like the good life. I like having pleasurable things. I enjoy living life to the fullest and being happy. That's just who I am. But then there's the identity—Dr. Elia, the psychologist, who helps people.

Ashish Kothari: That's the identity. This is who I am. This is what I do. How can I leave that?

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Right. And I still had young kids at home. It's not like I had already raised them. I felt the responsibility to be the provider for my family. There were other concerns too—I was making really good money. All that played a role.

Anyway, it was a painful lesson, but here's the good news. This year, actually next year, marks 20 years since that time. I'm 19 years older now, yet I'm healthier—physically, mentally, and spiritually. Chronologically, I'm 19 years older, but I feel much better. Why? Because I practice self-care, which we'll talk about in the "Seven Paths to Happiness."

Ashish Kothari: So let's talk about that. Let's get there. You've written two books, right? Let's get into the first one. The first book is called Seven Paths to Lasting Happiness.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Yes.

Ashish Kothari: Share with us what those seven paths are, and then let's discuss a couple of them.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Okay. So, the first and foremost is to love yourself and practice massive self-care. Self-care is non-negotiable. We'll come back to that.

The second path is gratitude. You cannot be in a grateful state and be depressed simultaneously on a physiological level. When we are grateful, the brain releases chemicals that lower cortisol levels and elevate our mood. It's like having our own internal chemical cocktail factory.

The third path is forgiveness. Gandhi said that forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. I would add that forgiveness equals freedom, and even more importantly, self-forgiveness is the ultimate act of self-compassion. However, in my experience, most people have not done the self-forgiveness work.

The fourth path is living your purpose, being in alignment with your purpose. For me, I learned early on in my life—unfortunately through hardship—that my purpose has always been to leave the world better than I found it, to help other people. That fuels my passion, and I've leaned into it for 35 years. I've done that my whole life, and I love it.

Number five is spirituality. I believe we're spiritual beings. This isn't about religion; it's about spirituality. So, feed your spirit—whether that's through prayer, meditation, mindfulness, or other practices. It's vitally important to acknowledge and support your spiritual self.

Number six is relationships. Have healthy, thriving, wonderful relationships and eliminate any toxic relationships from your life. This is a significant factor in overall happiness.

Last but not least is kindness. It's interesting: we start with self-care as number one and end with kindness as number seven. I truly believe that happy people naturally perform acts of kindness—not random acts, but deliberate, conscious, and mindful acts of kindness.

When our own batteries are full, we become great teammates in the workplace, collaborating well with our coworkers. On the flip side, when we perform acts of kindness, our brains release those positive chemicals again.

With kindness, everyone wins—the giver, the receiver, and even those witnessing the acts of kindness. It inspires others to also perform acts of kindness. So, those are the seven paths.

Ashish Kothari: I love that. This is why, friends, for those who are listening or watching, Elia and I connected two years ago when I started my book, Hardwired for Happiness. Elia was in Europe, and we literally met in person, I think, two or three weeks ago, maybe four weeks now—time flies.

But I have to tell you, when I met Elia, it felt like we were two brothers from different mothers. We were finishing each other's sentences and were so in sync.

In fact, the seven practices that Elia writes about, I can tell you, most of them show up in our framework. They're backed by neuroscience and psychology, and they're present in every wisdom tradition. These are beautiful practices.

We all come to this realization. My first invitation to you, as you listen to this—we'll put them in our show notes—is to do your own assessment. Ask yourself, how many of these do you know? But more importantly, how many of these do you practice, and where is the gap? Focus on that.

For our show right now, I want to focus on two practices we don't talk a lot about, Elia. Often, gratitude, mindfulness, and kindness are frequently discussed, but I want to focus on two others. First, let's talk about "Feed Your Spirit."

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Yes.

Ashish Kothari: For the first time ever, last year, it was a surprise to many people that even in the McKinsey model for holistic wellbeing, which includes physical, mental, social, and spiritual aspects, spiritual wellbeing showed up.

It's there. Often in the business world and the engineering world, we want to be very science-driven, and we think of spirit as something "woo woo" out there. It's not, and it's increasingly being recognized.

So let's explore that a bit, Elia. Talk a little about feeding your spirit, break that down for our listeners. What do you mean by that, and what are some ways we can do it?

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Number one, I believe that we are not physical beings having a spiritual experience once in a while, but rather we are spiritual beings having a physical experience on this earth for about 100 years.

That's the big-picture perspective. I believe my spirit existed before I came here in this physical form, and it will continue to exist even after our bodies are no longer here. At some point, we all cross that line, but I believe the spirit continues on.

We have to get quiet. In a world inundated with data, social media, TV—constant information—we have to unplug and find quiet. When you ask people what they do to feel connected, many say being out in nature makes them feel closer to God, to their higher self, and to their spirit. There's something about it.

For me, I go for a walk every single day. It's part of my self-care, which is non-negotiable. Before the pandemic, I used to walk three times a week for an hour, about three miles an hour, because I had to—I have gray hair, I'm getting older.

But once the pandemic hit, and the pressure and stress increased—personally, in my family, with extended family, friends all over the world, and speaking to audiences about my second book on the pandemic—I realized three times a week wasn't going to cut it.

to up my game. So in April of: 2020

And that's non-negotiable. Fifty percent of the time, I don't take my phone with me. Before, I was always on the phone, talking to clients, catching up with people while walking—multitasking. But now, I leave my phone behind.

I call it my "gratitude walk." I walk, look at the blue skies—you and I live near Boulder, Colorado, a beautiful place. I see the trees, feel the fresh air, admire the blue skies, and listen to the birds serenading me every morning.

I'm in a state of gratitude for a full hour. I talk to myself, meditate as I walk—it's kind of weird. My mind can't get too quiet, so I don't meditate like my wife does for an hour a day at home. I do it while I walk. I talk to God, to my higher self, and express gratitude for everything, including my challenges.

People have said, "You live a charmed life; you're so lucky. You spend eight months here, four months in your home in Greece, and travel in Europe." Maybe there's something to that. But I've consciously and deliberately thought about how I want to live the rest of my life until I die.

I want to be with people I love, who love me, and spend quality time with them. Eat good food, travel, see the world, and make a difference on a larger scale. That's one of the reasons for the TV show we just started, The Happy Hour with Dr. Ilya.

Ashish, you were my second guest ever for season one. I'm so excited to have you on the show. And I also want to work only with people I enjoy working with.

I'd love to collaborate with you, my friend, because we are so in sync in so many ways, and we could do so much good together. That's another story we can talk about later. That's how I feed my spirit. I also read things that lift me up.

Every morning, I read a couple of sayings, and I ponder them throughout the day, thinking, "How can I implement that?" Because, as you said earlier, in life, it doesn't matter what we know. What matters is what we do with what we know. You said it.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah, it's beautiful, right? Walking in nature, allowing ourselves to be silent in two ways: silence out there, but also silence in here. Allowing our thoughts to settle so we can tune in.

Friends, the universe, our inner soul, is always whispering. But if we are too busy talking, we won't listen. We won't hear the words. And Elia, I'm with you every morning, my friend. I sit outside.

We have this beautiful—I'll have you over—we have this beautiful tree, a bird feeder, and every morning, one of the best things for me is to sit outside with my cup of tea. I always pick up one of the spiritual books I have.

It can be a philosophical book, Stoicism, Buddhism, the Yoga Sutra, sometimes the Bible. I'll just pick a page or two and read it. It's my moment to start my day, usually before I've picked up my phone or let anything happening out there in.

Starting your day with some words of wisdom that you can keep front of mind is so important. We have to be silent. Nature is so healing, so therapeutic. It literally allows us to slow down because the pace of nature is slow.

Our pace—humans—probably have the fastest pace of any living thing out there because we never stop, right?

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: I want to share something with you and your audience. I had a guest on my TV show a few days ago, and one of the things she talked about was what happens when we first wake up. What is the first thing 85 to 90 percent of people do when they first wake up?

You told me this. We pick up our phone. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, guilty." I'm part of that 85 to 90 percent. So I made a commitment to myself, to you, Ashish, and to my audience. I'm saying this to you now. I'm going to try this for a week.

Just to try something different—don't get on your phone as soon as you wake up. This is a habit I've had for 20 years, you guys. It's not an easy habit to break. But I have to tell you, just for this entire week, the first thing I do when I wake up is think of you and what you said.

No, I'm serious. Because of what you told me, I have not picked up my phone for at least four days now.

I wake up, have thoughts throughout my day, and my phone is completely off. I express gratitude for the upcoming day, for whatever I have to do—not what I want to do, but what I am doing today.

About 15 to 20 minutes after I wake up, that's when I turn on my phone. Can I tell you, even with the craziness of having a TV show, the stress, and everything else, I have had three or four wonderful days as a result.

It’s just changing one habit—a micro-habit, really—delaying getting to my phone by about 15 minutes when I wake up. And Ashish, I can't thank you enough, man, for that. My commitment was for a week, but now I'm thinking, "No, this is how I want to be for the rest of my life, not just for a week."

Ashish Kothari: I'm so happy to hear that.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: No, thank you, though. Seriously, thank you. Because until you pointed it out the way you did, I knew it in the back of my mind, but I wasn't doing it. You calling it out was very helpful to me. My commitment now is to make this a lifelong habit. It's only four days old so far, but I'll get there, I promise.

Ashish Kothari: Well, I love that. And friends, this mindful start—life and happiness—is as much about what we remove from it as what we add. One of the things you talked about removing was toxic relationships.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Yeah.

Ashish Kothari: If there's something that's not serving you and is draining you, it's okay to let it go. So, let's talk about the second topic I want to discuss—literally the topic of forgiveness. Forgiveness for others, yes, but I really want you to talk, Elia, about forgiveness for oneself, because it's about both. So, talk a little bit about that.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Yeah. Self forgiveness, as she used to me, is the ultimate act of self compassion. So when I was in private practice, you know, my dissertation was on Alcoholics Anonymous. So I did a lot of work with addicts, you know, and when they come to you, they're like rock bottom.

Like they've, uh, you know, their self defeating thoughts have led to self destructive behaviors which have impacted their lives professionally and personally and so on. So, you know, typically they come in, Hey, hi, my name is John and I'm an alcoholic or I'm a drug addict or whatever. And in the first session, I would say, hold up.

Well, that's not true. They're like, well, I don't think you understand addictions or alcoholism. Like, I don't think you understand human life, human nature. You're so much more than that, John. You're a father, you're a husband, you're a friend, you're a son, you're a cousin. You're a nephew, you have your professional life, so yes, your addiction is, has been destructive, and it's impacted you in a negative way and so on, and we'll deal with that, but I just want you to remember that you're so much more than that, number one.

So then, you know, the year goes by, they sober up, they're sober for a year, they, we celebrate their one, the first birthday, I guess, of sobriety and so on, and typically at that point I would have, maybe the last interview, if you will, I would say, so John, um, Do you feel like your significant other, your spouse, has forgiven you?

Yes, your kids, yes, your boss, yes, whatever, you gotta go down the list. Then I would ask the obvious question, what about you? Have you forgiven yourself? Now, she's, the best answer that I received, and I'm talking about hundreds and hundreds of people, not the most common answer, but the best was, I'm working on it.

How, the most common answer was, no. And I'm like, okay, well, we're not quite done yet.

Ashish Kothari: Yeah.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Self-forgiveness, to me, is the ultimate act of self-compassion. When I was in private practice, my dissertation was on Alcoholics Anonymous, so I did a lot of work with addicts.

They come to you at rock bottom—their self-defeating thoughts have led to self-destructive behaviors that have impacted their lives professionally and personally.

Typically, they come in saying, "Hi, my name is John, and I'm an alcoholic or a drug addict." In the first session, I would say, "Hold up. That's not true." They’d respond, "I don't think you understand addiction or alcoholism."

And I'd say, "I don't think you understand human nature. You're so much more than that, John. You're a father, a husband, a friend, a son, a cousin, a nephew. You have your professional life. Yes, your addiction has been destructive and has impacted you negatively, and we'll deal with that. But remember, you're so much more than just your addiction."

As time goes by and they become sober—after a year, we celebrate their first year of sobriety. During what might be our last session, I'd ask, "John, do you feel like your significant other has forgiven you?" "Yes." "Your kids?" "Yes." "Your boss?" "Yes."

Then I'd ask the obvious question: "What about you? Have you forgiven yourself?" The best answer I ever received—and this is from hundreds of people—was, "I'm working on it." The most common answer, however, was, "No." And I would say, "Okay, well, we're not quite done yet."

A lot of people just don't know how to self-forgive. They don't know the process, which is actually very simple. I would bring John back and say, "John, I want you to write down, in bullet points, all the things you haven't forgiven yourself for in your entire life.

It could be five items, it could be fifty—I don't care how many. Take your time, spend a day or two, and write them down. Once you're done, put a number next to each one on a scale of 1 to 10.

Ten would be something like literally murdering another human—that's a 10, because people often exaggerate the things they can't forgive themselves for. A one might be something like, 'I went out to dinner with my wife and some friends last night, and I spilled some red wine on my white shirt and felt embarrassed.' That's a one.

Then we begin the process, typically starting with the ones, twos, and threes to gain some practice and momentum before moving on to the more difficult things."

What I discovered when working with senior leaders, especially those in the C-suite, was interesting. I remember the first time I presented this scenario to a very successful multimillionaire whose life was a mess.

He had all kinds of issues, and I gave him this homework. He said, "That's not how I want to do it." I asked, "What?" He said, "I'm going to start with my nines and eights. If I can do those, then the rest will be easy."

Ashish Kothari: I’ve worked with those types—those who say, "I don’t do the easy stuff. I chew glass. Why would I start with candy?" I’ve seen those types.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: But honestly, to your audience, I don't care which way you go as long as you do the homework. It doesn't matter to me. It makes sense to start with the easier stuff because they're easier to do. But the end result is the same.

When we were done with the list, we'd usually take a lighter, burn the paper, and release the fumes to the heavens. When I hugged them on the way out the door, they would whisper to me, "I feel like a thousand pounds has been lifted off of me."

Their only regret was not doing this years ago. Some people have things on their self-forgiveness list that go back decades. They've held on to this dead weight for so long.

If you don't practice self-forgiveness, you wake up every morning and, instead of not looking at your phone, you put on a backpack full of rocks, pebbles, stones, boulders—all that dead weight—and that's how you go through life.

Today is the day to forgive yourself once and for all. My wife knows this about me—self-forgiveness comes really easy to me. She asks, "How do you do that?" I tell her, "I don't take myself so seriously. I just let it go."

Ashish Kothari: I love that. And friends, I invite you to make that list today. Write down the things you haven't forgiven yourself for, rank them from 1 to 10—10 being the most extreme, like Elia said, where you might have caused significant harm, and 1 being something minor, something silly, something easier. Rank it.

And as he said, I actually do agree: since this is a new practice for most of us, it might be better to start from the bottom. But if you want to start from the top, go ahead.

Here's the thing, friends. There are two really important reasons to do this. Number one, we often don't talk about these things because we are ashamed of them. The things we're proud of, we share with everyone.

The things that bring us shame and guilt, we keep inside. Often, we push these deep into our unconscious because we don't want to think about them—they make us feel smaller. By naming them, you're starting the healing process. Once you bring them out into the open, you can actually do something with them.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: And you can do this with a professional—a therapist, counselor, psychologist—or it could be with a trusted advisor, your best friend, someone you feel comfortable opening up to.

I've had so many people tell me, "Dr. Elia, I've shared things with you that nobody else in this world knows about. I never thought I would say these things out loud. I thought I would take them to the grave."

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. Not even their spouse knows about these things.

But imagine—even if they just said it to themselves. Take a recorder and say it to yourself. If you don't want to share it with someone else, say it to yourself.

But if you're doing it by yourself, here's something I might invite you to add to what Elia just said. If you're watching, you can see this; otherwise, I'll explain. Take your hands, put them around your arms, and literally close your eyes and give yourself a hug.

You might even rub your arms three or four times and just notice what that does. In those moments of extreme darkness, we need love. You have been that friend to others who have been in darkness.

Yes, it's wonderful if you have others who can do this for you, a therapist, or someone who can be a witness, but if not, don't let that stop you from doing it.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: Absolutely. You're totally right about that. I can see some people saying, "I can't afford this," or "I can't do that." No, you don't necessarily need someone else. Ashish is absolutely right. Do it anyway.

Ashish Kothari: Do it anyway. You are your best friend. Give yourself a witness and just notice what happens if you hold yourself in that place. And I love your last step, which is to burn it. It allows it to leave. It's an act.

So, Elia, in the last five minutes, you shared some of your practices around filling your spirit. We talked a little about forgiveness. What are some other personal practices that you do and that you invite leaders to integrate into their lives, especially in a world right now with so much stress and anxiety? What are two or three things they should do?

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: One thing I can tell you has to do with the last path, which is kindness. When I was five years old, I learned my first life lesson from my grandfather, whose name I carry and honor. He gave me the gift of a lifetime. He died when I was six, so I don't have many memories of him. I remember he was a gentle man who wore a hat, and I would sit on his lap. When I was five, he did something profound. He said, "My boy, can I tell you a secret?" My ears perked up. He asked, "Do you want to be the richest man in the world?" I said, "Yes, Grandpa." He replied, "All you have to do is do something good for somebody else every day, and you, my boy, will be the richest man in the world."

Somehow, in my five-year-old Greek brain—this was in Greek, of course—that advice connected with my soul. I thought, "Do something good for somebody else every day, and you'll be rich." At the time, I thought "rich" meant gold, silver, and jewels like in Pirates of the Caribbean. But obviously, that's not what he meant. That wisdom downloaded into my soul, and I've lived by it for over half a century now. Anytime I'm feeling a bit down, which is human nature, the antidote is to look around and help somebody else. When you return from an act of service, which is deliberate and conscious, your whole perspective changes. You feel better. So that is something I try to do every day.

Kindness is free. It costs nothing other than your willingness to give someone a hug, to smile, to compliment—without expecting anything in return. My wife asks, "How do you love so many people so much?" I think I inherited that from my mom; I channel her love and energy. And it's effortless. You know why? Because I want to do it. It's not out of guilt or shame; it's because it's the right thing to do and it makes me feel better. Combine that with the gratitude walk—doing something kind for someone else every day is a game changer.

Add to that self-care, which is so important. With senior leaders, I often see their self-care is missing in action. No matter how much money they have or what position they hold, they often take shortcuts with their self-care, which adds to their stress. Senior leaders are often lonely within their organizations.

They hire us as executive coaches to help them, just so they can have a friend. They have to pay for it in a lot of ways.

Ashish Kothari: No, absolutely. There is so much loneliness, pain, and trauma that often gets passed on. Elia, my friend, we'll have you back to discuss your second book and the lessons in it, but thank you for being with us. We will definitely collaborate and create an offering for our listeners together. I'm grateful to you.

Dr. Elia Gourgouris: I'm grateful to you too. And thank you again for telling me not to pick up my phone when I first wake up. I've done it for four days now, and it's already changing my life. So, I'm deeply grateful to you for bringing that up. Thank you.