Part 2: How to Lead Better Through Positive Communication with Julien Mirivel

Ashish Kothari:

Welcome back, Julien, for part two of our Happiness Squad podcast on positive communications. Thanks for joining us.

Julien Mirivel:

Thanks for having me for a second time. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Ashish Kothari:

Julien, I want to pick up where we left off. You were talking about the six foundational behaviors of positive communications that allow us to be more resilient and get more out of our teams.

You shared so many benefits last time. We covered greetings, asking, and complimenting. Then we ran out of time, so I want to pick it up with the other three. Let’s start with disclosing.

Julien Mirivel:

Sure, no problem. Disclosing—in the model—I argued that it's an exemplar of positive communication. When done well, authentically and genuinely, it has the ability to deepen the relationships we have with others.

My friend Alex, co-author of my last book Positive Communication for Leaders, always says when we do presentations together—he's kind of a magician by training—he says disclosing is the magic wand of communication. And it really is, because if you share a little bit about yourself with others, it's one of the few behaviors that often gets reciprocated.

I tell you a little about me, you tell me a little about you, and—poof—there goes the magic. You and I are connecting on a deeper level.

Ashish Kothari:

Ah-huh.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s essentially what it means. I’ve got lots of examples, but I want to see what you’re thinking about as I describe it.

Ashish Kothari:

I would love to get some examples. The first reflection that comes to mind is—absolutely—a lot of people want to build psychological safety and trust. But we can’t demand that people trust us or feel psychologically safe.

But I think by being vulnerable, we can give them permission to lower their Johari windows, so to speak, so we can really see the beautiful human—fears, needs, and whatever else is happening.

Julien Mirivel:

That's correct.

Ashish Kothari:

The question that comes up for me is: how do we know what’s the right amount to disclose? How do we not disclose too much? What are the right guidelines—what to disclose, what not to disclose, and when? I’m sure there’s so much there, and I’d love to unpack that.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, those are always tough questions. I never call my model the "laws" of communication because they’re not laws—they're guides, principles, things to think about.

Last time, we talked about some of the other poles. For this part of the model, I really think about the tension between revealing and concealing information—what we call a dialectical tension. That’s never going to go away. In every relationship, in every connection, that tension will exist.

What I try to get people thinking about is how often we feel an urge to conceal—when in fact, if we had the courage to move in the opposite direction and reveal, we’re often surprised by how deeply we can connect with others in that moment.

It’s not a surefire guarantee. You have to be aware of when it’s a good time, what topic makes sense, whether you’re willing to take the risk—because sometimes, people won’t accept your disclosure as an act of connection.

But there are some disclosures that I think, as a leader, are relatively easy—and probably should be done. Can I give you some examples?

For example, giving your team a little insight into your personal experiences helps them understand where you’re coming from.

A good example: a couple of years ago, my 10-year-old son was in a pretty tragic accident. He was swimming in a pool. Two kids were rough playing by the side, one kid pushed the other, and that kid landed headfirst into my son’s head.

My son suffered a devastating concussion. For months, he wasn’t able to be 100%. I had to pick him up in the middle of the day, sometimes twice, so his brain could recover. He’s made a great recovery now.

But imagine I’m a leader during that time and I tell no one what’s going on in my life. It would be incredibly difficult for the team to interpret my behavior, actions, or emotions in a positive way. Most people would think, “He’s mad at me,” or “He looks upset,” and they wouldn’t know why.

Just telling people, “Here’s what’s happening—my son has a concussion, I’m managing a lot—I don’t need anything, I just want you to be aware,” helps them interpret what’s going on with me more generously than they might otherwise.

And in that act, you’ll often find that people resonate very well. It seems so simple, but so many people are afraid to reveal that.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I love that. I think people don’t need to be guessing. One, I think you leave so much—frankly, you leave so much.

We sometimes feel that work and life are separate, but we don't live in a Severance world where they are not interconnected.

Julien Mirivel:

I like that you said that.

Ashish Kothari:

That’s why there’s a show about it—it’s about real life. But when we are in this interconnected space, we leave so much humanity out of our workplaces.

Julien Mirivel:

That's correct.

Ashish Kothari:

Just by sharing, we create a space for somebody else who might be dealing with something that’s constraining their ability to be fully here. Sometimes, it’s just about giving grace or flexibility. Like, “Hey, it’s okay. You’re dealing with something—go do what you need to do. I know you’ll be there for me when I need it.”

And that makes a difference. As a leader, you might be able to do that, but your staff might feel pressured to choose either work or life.

Julien Mirivel:

 That’s correct.

Ashish Kothari:

Or when you're concealing what you're going through, then you feel guilty—like, "What am I doing? What am I not doing?"

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, and you're right. You also serve as a model. We know from research that the most important variable for performance in the workplace is the relationship an employee has with their supervisor. If that relationship is strong, performance is strong. If that relationship is weak, very generally, performance is weak.

So think about it this way—disclosing is the act that’s going to help you most in creating that connection. If you’re willing to share, very likely, when your employee is also facing something difficult or something that’s impacting their work, they’ll be willing to disclose it to you. That will give you insights and understanding into their experiences, and maybe even a little empathy.

I think of that move. There are others that I think are really important—things we don’t talk about enough, like setting expectations. Too many conflicts in the workplace occur because people break expectations, but really, it’s because leaders early on don’t share any of them.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. We don’t explicitly talk about what we want from someone. What does success look like? Then, we’re not happy when the person doesn’t deliver.

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

And many times, we still won’t say it. We just hold it in.

Julien Mirivel:

We still don’t say it. I’m so glad you're saying that. We’re not clear. Sometimes we don’t even know.

I know when I was first starting in leadership roles, I didn’t really know what my expectations were because I didn’t have the experience. But I learned from some of the best leaders.

Several years after I had started—for example, in my dean role—I had a provost who, in our first meeting, started the entire journey by saying, “Before we go anywhere, I want to share with you my expectations for what I want from this team.”

She had made a list. She wrote all of them down on a piece of paper. There were ten of them. I remember it like it was yesterday. She spent the first part of that first meeting with the entire leadership team going over every single one of her expectations.

Ashish Kothari:

Wow.

Julien Mirivel:

How many times have you had a boss do that with you? That’s what I’m talking about. That would be a second example.

The third, that’s a lot easier and something you can do, is to remember: people do not have access to what’s in your mind or heart. They only have access to what you say and do.

I think many leaders feel a lot of positive emotions toward their colleagues—feelings of gratitude, or that people did a great job. A key act we focus on in the book is simply this—and I know you’re going to identify with this because I’ve read your book—it’s the idea of expressing gratitude to the people around you.

You can write thank-you notes, send a quick text, or an email to your team to thank them for all the work they’ve been doing. When you do that, you're communicating to others that this is not just about the task. It’s about our relationship too, and who we are together. And I value you.

Ashish Kothari:

So important. This one thing—being valued by your boss or your company—shows up as one of the biggest needs of employees. This was research we did when I was at McKinsey. It shows up really high, and there are such simple ways to recognize people that we often don’t act on.

I think a lot of it has to do with busyness. And I think a lot has to do with the negativity bias—we always notice what someone’s not doing versus what they are doing.

Julien Mirivel:

That's correct. I would put gratitude—just like in your book where you write about the effects of gratitude on your level of happiness—it's the same thing in the world of leadership. It has to be a habit. It has to be part of you. Because you’ll feel happiness, but then you're also creating an environment where other people feel happy too. And that’s kind of the job of a leader.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. Three really specific ways in which we can practice disclosing: Number one is share what you're struggling with. Be open about it. Don’t live a Severance life.

Julien Mirivel:

 I love that.

Ashish Kothari:

Number two, you mentioned: be very clear about expectations—when they're met, when they're not—and make sure your team gets it. That can be part of the contracting process you set up with your team.

And number three: tell people what you're thinking and feeling, especially by expressing gratitude and recognizing them for what they’re showing up and doing for you and for your company.

Julien Mirivel:

Perfect.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. I think those are so practical.

Julien Mirivel:

 Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

Let’s talk a little bit about “encouraging.”

Julien Mirivel:

Okay, so that’s the next part of the model—number five on the list. All these behaviors are designed to get people thinking about how they can communicate a little more positively in their own lives—at home and at work.

Here, we're using the case of leadership, but these behaviors really transcend that context.

In the model, I argued that encouraging, when done well, is actually an act of giving. I wrote that when we encourage, we have the ability to give people support. I want people to think of the act of communicating as just as tangible an act of giving as giving money or giving someone something.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yeah.

Julien Mirivel:

If you think about it, it’s true. We use communication to give affection. We use communication to give love. We use communication when people face hard times. When there's any form of suffering, our instinctive response is to use communication to give them the support they need to succeed.

That’s really what this part of the model is about—realizing that in the workplace, there will always be suffering.

Your employees might be going through a divorce, having a hard time at home, working on a project that’s stretching their skills, or facing company restructuring. Tariffs may be going up and down—there’s always going to be something.

I know you’ve interviewed Jane Dutton. Her work fits really well in this part of the model—this idea of how we create a compassionate workplace. What does that look like?

Encouragement comes in different forms—we can talk about them—but leaders have to pay attention to at least three forms that are essential for creating this kind of compassionate environment.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I love that. Communication is an act of giving. It’s so true. As we talked about in the last episode, it's how we generate new worlds, new realities.

I love Thich Nhat Hanh’s work. He says you can always give. If there’s nothing else, you can always give a smile.

And I think this is the other one—if you can’t give a smile because you don’t feel like smiling, I think you can still, in that moment, give a kind word.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely. My students did a study. I have them do little mini research projects when I teach graduate-level classes.

What was really interesting is they did a study on leadership and found that out of all the behaviors, what employees really wanted—as I think you've mentioned—is to feel like they were valued and cared for. Encouraging is connected to that, but I do want to separate it.

Complimenting is when you say something about the person in the present moment. Encouraging is different—it's a movement from the present to the future. It’s a behavior that helps people overcome and move from who they are today to who they might become tomorrow. That, to me, is what encouraging is all about.

Can I give you a quick story that I love from one of my bosses?

Ashish Kothari:

Yes.

Julien Mirivel:

There are three forms of support well documented in the literature: Instrumental Support, Emotional Support, and Esteem Support.

Instrumental Support is anything you do to give information to other people. That might include being transparent with them about a crisis, a problem, or a restructuring, or anything you can think of. Another powerful way to show support is simply by giving advice.

Here’s the story. Years ago, I was having lunch with my boss. He was the chair of the department. Just the fact that we were going to lunch tells you a lot about our relationship—he was mentoring me, investing energy and time into who I was as a person and colleague.

I was a heavy smoker at the time. I’m French, and smoking was something I did, but it never felt aligned with my identity. I’ve always been active in athletics. I practiced martial arts for many years. I was a black belt—and I smoked. It just didn’t fit.

So, one day, during lunch, the topic came up, and he said, “You know, Julien, if you really want to quit smoking, all you have to do is quit one cigarette at a time.”

I don’t know what it was, but maybe two weeks later, I woke up, and like many smokers, the first thing I’d usually do is have a cigarette. But that day, I didn’t. I got ready, took a shower, and suddenly realized I had skipped my first cigarette.

Then I spent the day just skipping the next one and the next. It was excruciating, but I have never smoked since. My son is 17, so it’s been almost 18 years. I’ve been smoke-free because of that one little conversation.

Communication is a gift. He took the time, he listened, and he gave me a piece of advice that stuck with me. And we know this happens in the workplace. Leaders can do this.

Ashish Kothari:

I'm just thinking about that. What a gift. He probably gave you so many of your life years back.

Julien Mirivel:

Absolutely. It wasn’t just a gift of advice—it was a gift to my health, my relationships. My son wasn’t raised in a household with someone who smoked. Tremendous impact.

Ashish Kothari:

So you talked about these three key things: Instrumental, Emotional, and Esteem.

Julien Mirivel:

 Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

Talk a little more about those.

Julien Mirivel:

Instrumental support, as I mentioned, is an act of communication where we give people information. It can be as simple as sending a student a quick email: “I’ve been thinking about you. I know you’re exploring graduate school. Here’s a website that might help you learn more about what you could do with this degree.”

That’s information. That’s instrumental support—me providing something useful.

Another form is giving advice. I think many bosses withdraw from doing this because they don’t want to overdo it. They don’t want to be the kind of leader giving advice every day. But studies show the most meaningful conversations often happen when someone takes time to give another person thoughtful advice. It’s something to keep in mind.

Emotional support is anything you do to alleviate another person’s suffering. It can be nonverbal—like giving someone a hug if they need it, or placing a hand on their shoulder to show presence. It can be as simple as listening.

I gave a talk this week to about 300 people on resilient leadership. I came across a study where researchers collected diaries of employees over a year and analyzed them. They found the best leaders were able to give support.

One diary entry described a situation where something happened in the company that made everyone uneasy. The next day, a manager walked into the employee’s office, sat down, and asked, “How are you doing with all of this? How are you coping with all this change?”

The employee wrote that it felt so good to have someone just listen, be there, and care. That’s emotional support. It doesn’t have to be big. You don’t need to bring gifts or flowers. It’s just—“I’m here. I’m present. I’m listening.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. Just being able to witness. Be a witness and hold space. Often people feel they have to carry it all within.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, exactly. The third form is a little more specific—it’s esteem support. That’s almost like complimenting. It’s when we remind people of the strength they have in spite of challenges.

One of my graduate students had a good job and was let go yesterday. She emailed me, and part of what I’m doing now is reminding her:

“You are resilient. You’ve earned this degree. You have all these skills and power. Yes, this is a difficult time. We want to learn from it. But at the end of the day, you have strength. You’re smart. You’re resilient. You will overcome this challenge. And I have no doubt we’re going to overcome it together.”

That’s esteem support—it tells the other person how I see them, but in the context of a moment where suffering is taking place.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I think a big part of esteem support is letting people see their greatness through your eyes.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, tell me more about that.

Ashish Kothari:

People struggle with self-worth. I had the former CHRO of Applied Materials—one of the Fortune 10 companies—on our podcast. Even though she was so experienced and successful, she talked about feeling not worthy. She felt like an imposter.

So many of us feel we’re not good enough, that we’re faking it and might be found out. And when we do feel worthy, there’s often a voice saying it’s not okay to feel that way. So people play smaller than they really are.

I think one of the biggest gifts we can give those we lead—and our peers—is to show them their greatness. We show them they’re worthy and give them encouragement to truly believe it.

In fact, I was thinking about this recently. We had a conversation last Saturday that triggered the whole tariff response idea. I was speaking with a procurement partner at a firm and said, “If I’m not part of McKinsey, then who am I?”

And I said to him, “Are you kidding yourself? You have 20 years of experience. Yes, the firm plays a role, but you know so much.”

Just reflecting someone’s greatness back to them can be a huge boost. It can move people toward action.

Julien Mirivel:

As you were talking, I was really reflecting on the role of esteem support in overcoming challenges. I just read an article in The New York Times about the Masters. It shared stories of top golfers—some who had already won the Masters—completely fumbling.

g the tournament. That was in: 2011

Jordan Spieth is another. He was about to win back-to-back, then fumbled in the final round. This happens to the top athletes in the world—people at the highest level of their profession.

How do we manage that? We need people around us to remind us of our strength—what we’re capable of achieving. No success happens alone. There are always people who give us support.

Leaders can play that role. There will be failures, setbacks. Your team won’t always perform at the highest level. You have to anticipate that and be active in rebuilding confidence—so Rory isn’t still thinking about one fumble 14 years later in an otherwise extraordinary career.

Ashish Kothari:

Isn’t that amazing? We forget all of our successes, but we keep going back to that one—

Julien Mirivel:

The one shot.

Ashish Kothari:

Exactly. That one shot we missed.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s right. Just one shot.

Ashish Kothari:

Alright, so that’s encouraging.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s encouraging. Let’s go to “listening.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yes.

Julien Mirivel:

Listening, in the model, is the one act that helps us transcend our perceived differences. In leadership, the higher you go, the more listening becomes crucial. It’s a kind of inversion. Like what happens with students—they join a degree to learn how to speak, but the most important skill turns out to be listening.

What I try to say in the model is that communication is powerful because it’s one of the few tools we have to overcome our differences. Leaders can benefit greatly from learning to listen more deeply.

Ashish Kothari:

And how does one do that?

Julien Mirivel:

There are lots of skills. Philosophically, it starts with openness. One element of deep listening is the ability to be open—to new ideas, to being wrong, to not knowing.

That ties back to the behavior we discussed before: asking. Deep listening also takes what Carl Rogers, the famous psychologist, called unconditional positive regard. I’m sure you’re familiar with this.

Ashish Kothari:

Yes.

Julien Mirivel:

It means simply this: the word “regard” is how I look at you. “Positive” means warm. “Unconditional” means without any condition.

If we enter relationships and connections with unconditional positive regard—approaching others with warmth and no conditions—it doesn’t mean I agree with you. It means I want to explore your experience, your understanding, your perception. That changes the whole dynamic.

Psychology and therapy research shows this is one of the most powerful things we can do to transcend differences.

Another key aspect is learning to remove the masks. Carl Rogers and philosopher Martin Buber talked about this—how we pretend in our roles. We even pretend to listen. Removing the masks helps us be better listeners.

It’s one of the toughest skills in the model. It seems so simple, but it’s incredibly difficult.

Ashish Kothari:

One of the most overrated skills. People think they’re good listeners, but in reality, only 20% are.

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

I think there’s such a big gap there. I’m curious, Julien, if you’ve seen this model—which I love. We actually integrated it into our program because we knew listening was such a critical skill.

It’s a model by, I think, Otto Scharmer and the U Theory. He talked about listening at three levels, compared to what we typically do, which is this notion of downloading. We just listen to prove or disprove.

He talked about three levels:

The first is open mind—listening to understand.

The second is open heart—listening not just to the words, but to the emotion, to what’s present with the whole person.

And the third is open will—listening to what’s in the space between us.

Julien Mirivel:

 Open will. Interesting.

Ashish Kothari:

Sometimes that shift is huge. What we might think is a conflict can actually be something else entirely. Here's an example.

I do some work with the U.S. Olympic Committee. Often, there’s tension between athlete pay and funding for growing the sport. It can feel like a negotiation where there are two glasses of water and five thirsty people—and now we’re arguing over distribution.

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

Should we need more? Should you need more? But from an open-will perspective, the question becomes: Why are there only two glasses of water for five people?

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

How is the system making us adversaries? And how can we grow the pie together?

Julien Mirivel:

That’s right. Love that.

Ashish Kothari:

That’s open will. I try to pause in moments of conflict or misalignment and listen from those three places:

Open mind, when I’m seeking diverse perspectives

Open heart, when I want to feel the emotions, needs, fears—and disclose my own

Open will, when I ask, “Is there something bigger possible than just the options on the table?”

Julien Mirivel:

I love that. Can I add a fourth one that’s connected but a little different?

Ashish Kothari:

Please.

Julien Mirivel:

I’ll keep it short. Everyone listening can do this. Take your right hand and make a really tight fist. Imagine going into a conflict or difficult interaction with that tight fist. You’re frustrated, mad—not ready to listen.

Now slowly open your hand so your palm faces up.

That, to me, is the story of listening. So to your list, I’d add open hand. You cannot listen unless your hands are open. If your hand is closed, you cannot accept new information. But if you can find the strength to open your hand, you can listen differently.

This has helped me in so many situations. I teach listening in 30 seconds this way. It’s practical. If you’re in a tough meeting and don’t feel ready to listen, put your hand under the desk and silently open it. It shifts your demeanor—which is the only thing you can control.

You can’t control the other person. You can’t control the entire conflict. But if you change how you show up, it changes what happens next. I’ve found it liberating. I tell myself: just listen a little more deeply. Open your hand. And of course, everything else you described—open mind, open heart, open will—is also critical.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I love that. You just reminded me of something, Julien, which is very present for me. If I’m in a tense situation, or I feel we’re out of time, or we’re in conflict—you reminded me that somatically, the way it shows up when I’m not really listening, even though I might be pretending, is that I’ll have clenched hands.

Our hands get clenched. So I think it’s a wonderful reminder of a somatic cue. One that helps you ask: how do you know when you’re not listening? How do you even realize it?

Well, one of the markers might be that your hands—or your whole body—are clenched. I love that. If you say, “I do want to listen,” because after this podcast you’re inspired to listen more intentionally, it’s a big shift. I love the simplicity of: just open your hand.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s correct.

Ashish Kothari:

Open your hand, breathe, and then see how somatically you can move into the space where the other three listening modes become possible. So, thank you.

Julien Mirivel:

 Thank you.

Ashish Kothari:

That was beautiful.

Julien Mirivel:

 Love that.

Ashish Kothari:

So, Julien, as we go into the last couple of questions—I think there’s a lot here. One of the key things I always believe is this: we are drowning in knowledge and parched for practice.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s right.

Ashish Kothari:

And the bridge between knowledge and practice is often built through habits—those things we do unconsciously.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s correct.

Ashish Kothari:

So what might be some practical habits that leaders can start using to integrate this into their lives? Because we’re talking about six moves, three elements within each—maybe even more. That’s eighteen. Oh my God, I’m not going to remember all that. So what are three or four things that could help us build habits?

Julien Mirivel:

Well, it was my intention with the model to really simplify it as much as possible. I do think you want to keep these six behaviors in your mental toolkit. Yes, there’s a lot more richness underneath each of them, and as you develop the skills, you can access those deeper layers. But I believe six is a number we can wrap our minds around. It acts as an easy compass.

For me, the practicality looks like this: if you were to remember one thing about greeting, it’s that greeting is simple—it’s the act of moving in the direction of other people. That’s the general impulse I want you to have.

Asking is the impulse to be curious. You don’t have to remember every detail we discussed, just think, “Maybe I can be a little more curious,” and let communication flow from there.

Complimenting is about being gentle. It’s remembering that people need to feel loved, cared for, and valued. When you say something kind or appreciative, it makes a difference. It’s about seizing those moments when they show up.

Disclosing, as we talked about, is about moving toward revealing rather than concealing. Even if you do just a little more of that, you’ll notice the impact. It’s a lifelong journey. No one goes from zero to one hundred in a day, but we can grow in our ability to reveal ourselves over time and see what unfolds.

The model is designed to help each person reflect on their communication and discover more about who they are in the process.

Encouraging is about remembering that communication itself can be an act of giving.

And with listening—forget all the technical skills for a moment. I loved our conversation about it, but if you do nothing else, just open your hand. That’s it. Open your hand. That small gesture is already a lot, even though it seems so simple.

To me, you could focus on any one of the six, and you’d experience growth. Maybe, for a while, you just focus on greeting. Very quickly, you’ll realize it’s not as easy as it sounds. Making contact with new people, building genuine relationships, checking in on your team—those aren’t always natural habits.

So try making it a Monday habit. Just work on greeting each Monday. Move in the direction of people. You’ll find that, even that alone, could become a lifelong practice.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. We actually have this one practice called the Nine Sunflower Petals. One of the things we created was a way to remind ourselves daily.

So we said: what if, every morning, you set an intention and pick a word? “Today, I’m going to be grateful,” or “Today, I’ll be mindful,” “I’m going to be present,” or “I’m going to be purposeful today.”

I really like this. And to our listeners—imagine if you took the six behaviors and, every day, picked one. You could even make it fun: write them on six cards in different colors and pick one randomly each morning. Or open your laptop and choose one at random to guide your day.

That ties to something else I’ve come across. Will Bowen has dedicated his life to teaching people how not to complain. And he created these little rubber bracelets—just like the ones you wear around your wrist.

His method is simple: every time you catch yourself complaining, you move the bracelet to your other wrist.

Julien Mirivel:

Okay, I love that.

Ashish Kothari:

And when you complain again, you switch it back. It becomes a visual and physical reminder. You want to see how long you can go without needing to move it.

So I thought—what if we did something similar with your model? Imagine six rubber bracelets in six different colors, each representing one of the six behaviors:

Curiosity

Gentleness

Revealing

Giving

Opening

Listening

Every morning, choose one to wear. Every time you embody that move, you physically switch it to your other wrist. Notice how many times it happens.

Because it’s only when we practice that we become it. And maybe over time, these practices embed into our lives. But in the meantime, we can have fun with it.

Julien Mirivel:

I really love that. That’s actually at the heart of the model too. We didn’t talk about this much, but at the center of the model, I placed the words inspire and influence. What I’m really getting at is that the only way we create change is by modeling it.

You probably know the story of Mahatma Gandhi and the mother who came to him asking for help. She said, “My son is eating too much sugar. Please tell him to stop.”

Gandhi told her, “Why don’t you come back in a week.”

She returned, and Gandhi looked at the boy and said, “Stop eating sugar.” The mother asked, “Why did you make us wait a week?”

And he replied, “Because a week ago, I was eating sugar.”

Ashish Kothari:

Oh my God, I love that.

Julien Mirivel:

We can talk about positive communication all day long, and it feels good. But at the end of the day, we have to do it. So I’m going to see if I can create some of those bracelets. Not just for others—but for myself too.

Ashish Kothari:

I think I'm definitely going to share your work with so many people.

We're going to create some bracelets, and I think it's something you can even buy for your team. You just play together, and you can start to notice what someone is practicing. There’s so much you can do with it.

I think play is so missing in our lives. Positive communication is so missing in our lives. If we can integrate it into workplaces, I believe we can create flourishing. We can help people and teams truly operate at their fullest potential.

Julien, thank you. These two hours have been so generative for me. They’ve been such a gift for me, and I’m sure they will be for our listeners as well.

Julien Mirivel:

Thank you so much for having me, Ashish. It’s been a real pleasure to enjoy these conversations. I feel the same way—I’ve learned a lot, and I’m so glad we finally got connected.

Ashish Kothari:

Thank you, my friend. Be well.

Julien Mirivel:

Thank you. You too.