Improving Wellbeing at Work with Ashish Kothari and Dr. Samata Vasisht

Ashish Kothari:

Hi, Samatha. It's so nice to be with you and record this episode around flourishing and well-being at work.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Absolutely, Ashish. It's always a delight to meet you. I see you and I notice the happiness within me.

Ashish Kothari:

Well, that's so kind of you. So, my friend, we always start this podcast with a question that we ask all our guests. Which is, what is happiness for you and how has that definition changed over time?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

I smile because as soon as you ask, I'm looking at a younger me, which would say happiness is getting what I want. So I feel good because I got exactly what I wanted. But that's not how my life actually worked out.

Over the years, recognizing that happiness was still about being good, doing good, and feeling good. And as life continued to grow, there were times I was not feeling good or doing as well as I would. Initially, I thought being the best I can is happiness.

But as I grew up and started seeing more people as a doctor, the definition of happiness shifted to acceptance, contentment, gratitude. Life is bigger than I am, and there are things I can do and things I can't. So, I would say more humility. Happiness is harmony with what is.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that because what you're saying is the classic if-then-else game that so many people are stuck in, especially in our younger years. We were just with a yoga teacher training program, taking them through the Rewire so they can bring this work to their students. The if-then-else mindset was so present.

For many, it's a lot of "If I get this, then I'm going to be happy," versus choosing to be happy in the here and now. And from that joyful state, navigate life. I really like your notion of: we all at a certain age come to realize and tune in to surrendering to what's happening.

Professor Shrikumar Rao, who we had on our podcast earlier, has this beautiful phrase. He says, "What if you assume the universe is actually conscious, positively inclined towards you, and everything you're getting is because you need it, even if it might not be what you want at that moment." I see that echoed back from you in terms of surrendering, accepting, and humility.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

I'd love to respond to what you just said. I like to simplify things, sometimes oversimplify, but that's okay. I feel as a human being, and I love what you're saying, that life happens for you.

I heard Katie Byron say that years ago. It's not about life happening to you, but for you. From that place, I thought life has an autocorrect mechanism. As a human being, there are always autocorrect mechanisms.

What I recognized is, and this is how I like to phrase my work, as a human being, there are two innate drives within us. One is towards becoming. Like there's a seed in me, and I want to blossom, flower, and flourish to become that Samata that I could be. But along with that, there is this need for belonging.

So between becoming and belonging, there are these two innate complementary drives. For me, as a human being, I will continuously be dancing between becoming and belonging. I might want to become too much, and then life's autocorrect mechanism will quickly kick me back into belonging. So, I agree with the idea that life happens for you.

Ashish Kothari:

ou're a medical doctor who in: 2009

Dr Samata Vasisht:

When I started, I wouldn't have used the word inspiration; it was more desperation, a quest. I'll be super candid. I used to be married, a beautiful marriage of 10 years with two lovely children.

Around: 2008

hinking I was being rejected.: 2009

It led me down a path of questioning why a perfectly amazing human would do something like that. I started to investigate and, to my shock, at the clinic where I worked, I saw more and more younger people coming to me with lifestyle disorders, mental health issues. I started to see where this was coming from. More and more people from the workplace were coming to us with these issues. So, I decided to address this at the root.

Ashish Kothari:

It's beautiful. And Samata, I have to tell you, there have been two very recent indications, very similar experiences. One was Dr. Neha Sangwan, who you also know. She explained her own burnout. She was burnt out and not recognizing it. This notion of burnout is a silent epidemic. People going through it don't realize it, even though others often see the signs.

The second thing I would highlight is a conversation I had with the COO of a large company. He's a dear old friend I've known for a long time. He was describing how he was feeling and his day-to-day life. This is one of the most positive, life-filled people I've known for 20 years. I asked him to rate himself on a scale of one to ten on three key questions, using the Christina Maslach inventory burnout questions.

First, I asked about his work. He said he's never felt more cynical about his work than he is right now. Then I asked how effective he feels. He said he's working hard but doesn't feel at his best. So, this notion around professional efficacy. I asked about his cognitive and emotional state, and it was the same.

I told him, "Listen, Sebastian, I'm going to send you an article. I want you to read it and think about this. I think you're experiencing burnout or close to it." So, I wanted him to explore it. That was the second one. In fact, now we are working with a university training people in a fellowship for gynecology and oncology.

Stress and burnout is a huge issue for them. They wanted to work with us to explore how to equip these doctors to not be burnt out. There is a personal cost to this, but the bigger cost is people don't realize they're close to it and they are making life-and-death decisions for people. We can't have them not be at their fully cognitive best to make those decisions. It's an important lesson here, friends. We often don't see when we or our colleagues are experiencing burnout. We think it's okay.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

We've noticed that something is different, and now there's more awareness. I'm so glad that more people are talking about it and providing really catered solutions. That's just awesome.

Ashish Kothari:

So tell me a little bit about burnout and flourishing. They have very different connotations and meanings for people. You've been in this field for 13 to 14 years now, first as a doctor and then specifically working in flourishing. You've done some amazing work for great clients. How do you define flourishing and wellbeing in the context of the world and the work we are doing?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

These concepts of flourishing and wellbeing are approached from different angles, and I've evolved in my own understanding. For me, flourishing is what I call wellbeing in action. We may know what wellbeing is, but it's about practicing and making those behaviors every day. As I continue to put wellbeing in action, I continue to flourish. So, flourishing is “wellbeing in action” for me.

Now, what is wellbeing? Wellbeing has more nuance, as I've really sat with it for about 30 years since I graduated as a physician. For me, wellbeing is an experience. To be well is to be at ease, not this ease, but at ease. What am I at ease with? I'm at ease with myself, others, and the world at large. I'm looking at wellbeing as being at ease, in harmony, or wholeness, where nothing is missing.

Ashish Kothari:

So this notion of wholeness that comes up, comfort with self, comfort with others, it's not just the absence of this ease, but so much more.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Exactly. It's much more than that. It's the positive connotation of wellbeing. It's not just about feeling good, but embracing the wholeness of life which has everything going.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. And Samantha, in the framework you built, which has been the basis of so much of your work, you break wellbeing into a range of different dimensions.

Could you bring that to life for our listeners? What are all the domains of wellbeing? It's not just a single construct, but there are multiple aspects to it.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

In: 2010

I started working with organizational wellbeing and wondered how to make it relevant to people with deadlines, which was new to me as a doctor. I began to think about it differently and looked up some literature.

From: 2010

So, I asked myself, what is the input for wellbeing? What creates all of this? A lot of my work comes from being born in India and having access to spiritual teachings. I've been fortunate to meet many spiritual mentors. The input for wellbeing, for me, is consciousness and awareness.

What is your self-awareness and higher awareness? How do you give meaning to life? How do you perceive life? That's the input to wellbeing.

Along with that, what is the seed inside you? What is the potential inside you that you were born with uniquely? So, what is consciousness? What is your potential? And how do you engage with the environment outside? This is how I conceptualize wellbeing. The outputs remain the same, as everyone talks about.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. Awareness, especially self-awareness, is at the heart of the Sunflower Model at Hardwired for Happiness. Self-awareness is critical to access so many elements. It's crucial to unlock and understand the obstacles we create through actions that might be hurting our own wellbeing. It's pivotal and critical for organizations too. People need to know the state of wellbeing and what's actually causing it.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Yes, and you know what? I'm going to be super honest. I didn't know all of this from the start. I've been through my own sufferings and challenges. The time when I went through my divorce was probably the most difficult. If you had asked me about it then, I would have said it was the worst thing that happened to me.

But over the years, I would say that was one of the most pivotal times. It was a time for growth, for really noticing that life happens for you, for my own evolution. So that's where my well-being conceptualization is round, like yours. I love your book; there are a lot of parallels between what you and I are talking about. At the heart is consciousness and evolving consciousness.

Ashish Kothari:

Tell me a little bit about your work with amazing clients. I know you served Unilever and did amazing work with them across the Middle East. You've worked with several other well-known companies.

Could you share a case study, maybe the Unitywood case study, of the work you led? Give our listeners some context around what was the problem you were trying to solve, how you went about doing it, and the construct of how you ran the program to really create an environment of flourishing in those places?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

So, I was venturing into why amazingly good leaders were going through difficult times. It was a personal quest for me. Born and raised in Bombay, I moved back from Dubai to Bombay and felt more at ease. I worked as a physician in Hinduja Hospital and started an executive stress clinic, which unfortunately failed. None of the doctors wanted to refer to us. I realized this approach wasn't working.

That's when I thought about going into organizations, but I didn't know how. This led to the beginning of my work with Unilever. I was part of the Indian Association of Occupational Health Physicians and knew Dr. John Cooper from Unilever, who was inquiring about how to give more vitality to leaders.

Around: 2009

He awarded me the first pilot after a year of discussions. I was deep into the concept of working with the whole person – body, mind, and spirit. For him, this was a foreign concept, and he needed data to see real results.

In: 2010

Over the years, starting in: 2010

From: 2010

Ashish Kothari:

Friends, as you listen to the story and the journeys, you'll notice a couple of things. Let me give you the data behind what Samantha is talking about.

There's a recent report from McKinsey that studied 30 different countries with a 30,000 people sample set. They were looking at wellbeing and burnout as two distinct measures, exploring where we are and the drivers behind it.

The report highlights the core problem with the world of wellbeing. Despite significant increases in wellbeing spent across companies, stress, anxiety, and burnout continue to plague geographies, countries, and companies.

Most wellbeing programs focus on the individual, offering interventions like Headspace apps or nutrition advice. Even employee assistance programs are individual-focused. The research report highlighted that when it comes to holistic wellbeing, individual interventions only accounted for 28%, with the rest being job, team, and organizational level interventions and factors.

The contrast is even starker with burnout, where only 3 percent is individual, and 97 percent is related to the team, job, and organization. This is why most wellbeing investments have zero ROI.

A recent study from Oxford also validated this, showing that most individual wellbeing interventions around mental health don't lead to significant results because they don't address the job, the team, and the organization, including factors like toxicity, not being valued, not finding meaning, feeling pressure, and lacking psychological safety. Unless we build these into wellbeing programs, we're not going to move the needle.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

ing make sense. We started in: 2009

Energize was the individual wellbeing piece. Empower was about team resilience. Leadership was about shifting the culture. In Unilever, we started with wellbeing, then moved to resilience, and then to culture and values.

We learned through doing over nine years in different regions. Unilever was my anchor client, and I learned a lot. They knew we were learning together, so there was no pressure to show that I had done it all and knew it all.

Ashish Kothari:

You started with the goal to improve wellbeing and reduce stress at Unilever, and you mentioned not measuring productivity. What were the actual end results from that pilot program? How much increase in productivity did you experience? How much improvement in stress and wellbeing?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

There were three things we focused on. Firstly, the occupational health physician within Unilever monitored physical health parameters, and we saw a shift in that.

Secondly, the leadership was practicing their leadership model at Unilever, and while I didn't claim to impact performance, I committed to two things: subjective wellbeing and resilience.

For subjective well-being, we used a hundred-item questionnaire covering ten dimensions of wellbeing, both before and after the program.

For resilience, we used the brief resilience scale, a simple, validated instrument with five statements.

We also had a self-assessment where people evaluated their performance, productivity, engagement, and relationships, which shifted over the six months of our journey with a particular set of leaders.

Ashish Kothari:

And so what, what scale of impact, what quantified set of impact did you all see?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

rocess and we were not in the: 2020

We received a lot of qualitative feedback, including videos and testimonials where people spoke about life-changing experiences.

For instance, during the Arab Spring, when Tahrir Square in Egypt was experiencing the revolution, we ran a resilience workshop. Two skeptical leaders questioned the relevance of the workshop amidst the revolution.

However, after the workshop, they won the Unilever Compass Award, the most prestigious global award, because the Egypt business unit, despite the revolution, exceeded expectations quarter on quarter and month on month. I wasn't measuring that aspect, but they were.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. So, in the last 10 to 15 years, the science and quantitative part of the work has caught up. I want to share some external stats that can really help. If these stats are not showing up in your organization with a wellbeing program, I invite you to ask for them.

had on our podcast, proved in: 2007

When we look across different studies, here's the business case: companies with flourishing cultures have two times higher stock market returns, 21 percent higher profitability, 12 to 30 percent higher productivity, three times higher creativity, and 65 percent lower attrition. These numbers are validated across Gallup, Microsoft, McKinsey, Oxford, and others.

The science behind the impact of flourishing on productivity, creativity, and business performance is clear. We need to link it in our programs and integrate it with data to know if they're working or not.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Absolutely, you're so correct. In recent years, I've had the privilege of working with large clients like Microsoft, MasterCard, HSBC, and Shell. Things are shifting. People are becoming more aware and are taking more data-informed approaches. There's a lot of promise and optimism in the way organizations are evolving. There are more conscious organizations now.

Ashish Kothari:

For our listeners, when you look at leaders in this space who are doing things the right way and making significant strides, what are three to five strategies or proven things that you're doing that you wish more clients integrated into their wellbeing programs?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

First, take responsibility for your own wellbeing and growth. Ask for what you need and let people know what success looks like. For leaders, it's about walking the talk in a literal sense. Commit to it, show what you're doing, and engage with your teams. Let them know how you manage, struggle, and rebound.

Ashish Kothari:

Vulnerability and role modeling is a really big element of what you highlight.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Absolutely. Responsibility and accountability are key. Be responsible for yourself and take accountability.

Ashish Kothari:

What else, Samantha? What are some other specific things that you see leaders do that others should emulate?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Psychological safety is crucial. And I also feel sometimes we get lost in fixing things. I'm a big proponent of focusing on what's working and being appreciative. Wear glasses of appreciation. Rather than catching people doing things wrong, catch them doing things right. We know about the flourishing ratio, the positivity ratio of three to one.

Unilever, for example, has incorporated this into their performance appraisal. Create an environment where people feel joy, bonding, and friendship, and can have fun together. Create a culture where people have friends at the workplace, can relate, share, ask for support, have strength-based conversations, and also address difficult conversations early. Let them know what you need and think. They'll be thankful to you.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. So you're highlighting three key things. One is being vulnerable and taking responsibility, really showing it. You also highlighted recognizing strengths and what's working, so celebrate those. And your third point was about nipping difficult conversations. Don't just focus on the positive, but also address energy drains that exist.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

I like that framing. You're right. Absolutely. And, maybe it's too simple, but have an adult-to-adult conversation. Trust that people are resourceful and will be thankful that you let them know. It might be difficult, but learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Ashish Kothari:

I also really liked your example about the power of integrated teams doing this work rather than just individuals. There is power in peer learning that can be tapped into.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Absolutely. Most of the work I've done at the leadership level encourages people to meet off work and connect as humans. Knowing each other, building trust and bonds, and having that feeling that someone's got your back is invaluable.

And of course, being open to feedback, actually soliciting feedback. One of the leaders I respect is those who actively seek out feedback, not just in monthly reviews, but genuinely seeking it out.

Ashish Kothari:

Samantha, it would be remiss not to ask you, what are three to five personal wellbeing practices that you have integrated into your life that continue to create that spark and energy in you?

Dr Samata Vasisht:

The first thing I would say is faith. I wasn't like this years ago, but now I have an implicit faith that there's divinity in each one of us. I remember that within me and in others. I believe the universe is benevolent, that we are looked after, and there's divinity in everyone. That faith has been a guiding light in my life.

Second, learning, especially from my two wonderful children. Becoming a single parent changed me as a human. The amount I've learned from being a single parent to my daughter and son is immense. Children are infinite beings in a finite body and mind. So, learning and humility are my second key practices. I constantly ask myself, "What can I learn from you today?”

Ashish Kothari:

I call it “my son, my teacher.”

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Absolutely. My children's names reflect my practices. My son is Rishi, the learned one, and Asta means faith. As I said, faith is my first practice and learning is my second. Third is meeting lovely friends. What keeps me alive is working with them, connecting with people I enjoy working with and meeting. One of them is you, Ashish.

People that I care about and with whom I feel happy and want to do something together. Keeping social connections, offering help, taking help, really helps me maintain my wellbeing. And fourth, Bollywood dancing. That's my movement. I hate going to the gym, but I love Bollywood dancing.

Ashish Kothari:

I love all of those four, and they're so beautiful. Faith, there is so much decline in both religion and spirituality. I'm reminded of this beautiful book, "The Awakened Brain." I'm forgetting the name of the author right now, but she studied the effect of faith and spirituality on stress, our ability to bounce forward, cognitive decline, and more. She found that an awakened brain, a spiritual life, is actually a healthier brain.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

I totally agree with that. I haven't read it, but I'd love for you to share that with me later.

Ashish Kothari:

It's a beautiful piece of work, grounded in neuroscience. I also really love your notion of learning, being a lifelong learner, but also humility. We can learn so much from children. In the space of happiness, mindfulness, and not taking ourselves too seriously, children, especially when they're younger, are in a state of presence. They can be immersed in something for hours in play.

The state of children is pure joy. Something needs to happen to make us unhappy, and as we grow up, we all do the if-then-else thing, thinking something needs to happen to make us happy. We can learn so much from just watching a child play, and not being worried about what others think when we fail. Imagine a child learning to walk. If they worried about how they look every time they fall down, none of us would be walking.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Their gluteal muscles wouldn't develop to give them a powerful gait. I'd love to share a dear story about my son, Rishi, when he was six. I got upset about something and told him off. He went to his room quietly, and I was still upset. He came out after five minutes and started talking about something else.

I reminded him I told him to go to his room, but he said, "Mama, you already told that to me five minutes ago. I was in my room." I mentioned what he did, but he replied, "But you already shouted at me for that. What are you shouting about now?"

He was so innocent. It made me realize that it was over five minutes ago. Why was I still stuck on it? He had forgotten and moved on. He asked me to repeat why I was shouting, and I realized there was really nothing else. It was done and over.

Ashish Kothari:

It's so beautiful. We hold on to things. We have a rule at our house: no matter the argument or disagreement, we don't go to sleep angry at each other. We apologize, learn, and move on, regardless of who was right or wrong.

Life is too short. We live as if we're going to live forever, but we don't know what might happen. Life is too short to hold grudges or resentments. I love the story of your son coming back after five minutes and asking, "Hey mom, what are you upset about now?" It's time to move on.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

There are so many stories like this with both my children. What I've learned is to be curious and to understand that they are as divine, beautiful, and human as you and I, just in a smaller package. They have the same infinite being within them.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. As we wrap up, Samantha, one question comes up for me. You are very unique. You've worked across geographies, in the U.S., Dubai, Europe, and a lot in India. You're a doctor, a wellbeing and flourishing expert at work, and a leadership coach. You've seen flourishing from a 360-degree angle, in small, medium, and large companies. Often, wellbeing programs are seen as employee benefits or learning and development, typically in HR. Can you highlight for us the role leadership, real business unit leaders, and team leaders play in promoting wellbeing? Talk about the criticality of that for me.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

The first thing I do, and now that I've begun to do more, is to refer to the McKinsey Health Institute report because it makes the data super clear. It's a clear business case. If I have to bottom line it, wellbeing equals performance.

Wellbeing at the cost of performance is going to be super costly. Leaders need to understand that wellbeing equals performance. It's not about being good or altruistic. Please don't hand out yoga coupons or tarot readers; that's not the wellbeing employees need. They don't have time for that.

Instead, make wellbeing a strategic, integrated imperative within your performance management system. It should be one of the core pillars in your strategy. Employee wellbeing needs to be measured, reviewed, and evaluated consistently. It's not just about running a program but really seeing what's working, what's not, and what's coming in the way. Getting that commitment from leadership is crucial, and having them be the champion is key.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. Treat it truly like a value creation strategy, because it is. Two to three and a half percent stock market returns versus peers over 10 years is close to a 50 percent higher shareholder value creation. Run it like any other transformation. Measure it. Make it the responsibility of line leaders, not just HR and employee benefits. Learn. Use data to learn, guide, and drive interventions. That's what I'm hearing from you, Samantha, from all of your experience.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

And actually, I've had good and not so great experiences with HR people. But what I've understood is if I've managed to coach an HR leader to be really an enlightened HR leader, they take it very well. They partner beautifully. This is really relevant because we want an internal champion, someone to take that on because we can't be there all the time.

Ashish Kothari:

No, and I actually truly feel, in all the work that I've done, most people get into HR because they really want to make a positive impact on people. And I haven't come across too many HR folks who don't really care about that.

I think the pushback is, the issue that we really need to solve here is the true responsibility and true understanding of business leaders around the job of flourishing and really helping leverage their HR business partners to take something from what's the end of the line. What's the minimum I can do to truly help coach leaders, integrate well-being into my work. And I think they will be there, so the real challenge is actually the business inviting a different mindset.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

True. More and more business leaders are becoming aware and conscious. It's not a hard sell anymore like it was 10 years ago.

Ashish Kothari:

Well, my friend, keeping an eye on the clock, thank you. This was an amazing conversation. I'm excited about the work you're doing and the impact you're having. I look forward to finding ways to collaborate, to amplify each other's work, and to turn back the clock on the stress and burnout epidemic.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

k, which I hope to get out in: 2024

Ashish Kothari:

All the best with your book. I'm always happy to help. Take care and have an amazing day.

Dr Samata Vasisht:

Thank you so much, Ashish. It was wonderful talking to you. Cheers. Bye.