How Positive Leaders Use Purpose and Meaning to Create Extraordinary Organizations with Kim Cameron Part 2

Ashish Kothari: Kim, I'm so excited. Welcome back for part two of our positive leadership episode here on The Happiness Squad Podcast. Thank you for being so generous with your time.

Kim Cameron: Oh my goodness, it's an honor. It's a delight. I'm flattered. And I'm an admirer of yours. This is a wonderful opportunity for me.

Ashish Kothari: So, Kim, we talked in the last episode about what positive leadership is, this notion of virtuousness, the heliotropic effects that it creates, how it actually drives positive deviance performance.

I want to get into the four key pillars that I find so inspirational, so powerful, the science behind them, and the stories that really bring this to life. The four pillars you talk about are positive meaning, positive climate, positive relationships, and positive communications.

So maybe we start with positive meaning and just hear from you. What does your research suggest about why positive meaning is so important in the workplace?

Kim Cameron: Thanks for this opportunity. I have a colleague who has written a book on purpose and meaning. He's in the health management department at Michigan, and it's a really good summary of all kinds of studies. I'm going to give you a story in a minute, but he has a long list.

If you have significant meaning in your work, in your life, if there's a profound purpose for which you're engaging in what you're doing, lots of interesting outcomes occur, including life expectancy, fewer diseases, certainly less chronic diseases, more money earned in a lifetime, happier families, more successful marriages, and so on.

All that research is pretty compelling. There's more recent work done with people who have a spiritual foundation, whose life is centered in something spiritually profound. Sure enough, they're more generous, they live longer, they live happier lives, they're more fulfilled, and so on. There's all kinds of research about that.

The research I like a lot has to do with identifying meaning that has an impact on other people's lives. This morning, I was on a Zoom call with people in the army intelligence, military intelligence function. They're interested in trying to become much more integrated into AI.

They believe that AI—essentially, some believe we're in World War III—it's a cyber war, not a bullet war. And so if we're not savvy, if we're not leading the pack in AI, and we're not—now we're lagging in many areas—you know, we could be speaking a different language in 20 years and so on.

It turns out people are willing to give up a quarter of their earnings in order to have meaningful work.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely.

Kim Cameron: That matters a lot. The idea that I'm doing something for someone else has a big impact on human beings. I'll give you some examples. I have a colleague at the University of Michigan, a psychology professor, who took entering freshmen at Michigan. She asked them to identify their goals for the year.

Now, everybody has lots of goals, but she categorized the goals into two types. One type was called achievement goals: I want to get good grades, I want a girlfriend, I want to make the team, I want to be popular.

The other kind of goal was called contribution goals: I want to make a difference, I want to contribute to something that helps somebody get better, something is better because I've contributed.

Everybody has both kinds of goals, but some people are dominated by one, some are dominated by the other. So she put people in two groups depending on which type of goal was dominant.

Then, she simply followed these students for one academic year, measuring things like how well they got along with their roommates, how many times they got elected to a club office—popularity kind of measures, social factors, how many minor physiological symptoms they experienced, like getting the flu, headaches, or missing class, physical factors, and cognitive academic factors like their grade point average at the end of each semester, their test scores.

On every single dimension, contribution goals were more productive than achievement goals in predicting their success—socially, physically, cognitively, or academically. That is, it's the contribution they made to other people that mattered the most. That benefited them, not to mention others. That's also typical of several psychological studies.

For example, they took multiple sclerosis patients. Half of these people were assigned to receive a phone call once a week from somebody expressing love, support, and concern. The other half of these people were assigned to place a phone call to somebody else expressing love, support, and concern.

Two years later, they measured self-efficacy, confidence, competence, physical activity, hope, depression—I can't remember the other factors. There was an eight-fold difference. Those people who placed the phone call were eight times healthier than those people who received the phone call. That is, the contribution to somebody else benefited their own well-being. And that's so typical.

If I can find something that I care about and I make it available to someone else, I'm not doing this just to be famous, not just to make sure everybody knows who I am or any of that. Rather, if I feel like I have a meaning, a purpose, something that will improve humanity, my children, my spouse, or my relationships—even on a temporary basis—it has a big impact.

Ashish Kothari: It pays off. I love those examples. Kim, so much of the research you're talking about highlights the power of when people find meaning, how much better they are in terms of the outcomes they experience.

I was doing this research when I was at McKinsey, and we found that 85-90% of people at senior leader levels find meaning in what they're doing. That number drops to around 10-20% in frontline workers.

So if you're a leader, what are some ways in which, of course, people can find meaning outside work, but I always say, you spend most of your time at work. Why not find it there? As a leader, recognizing how important meaning is, what are two or three strategies that people can use to help others connect more meaning to what they do every day at work?

Kim Cameron: It's a wonderful question, and there are many answers. I'm not sure I have all the right answers, but here are some examples. One option is to provide or offer mentoring, coaching, or assistance to benefit someone who is struggling or needs it.

One of the best examples I know is an organization where, when people do something well, they get a reward, but the biggest reward is the chance to coach, teach, or present in front of senior executives. They share what happened—not for personal recognition, but to highlight their team’s accomplishments and to make someone else's life better. That's one example.

Another example is from my hometown, Ann Arbor, Michigan, at a delicatessen called Zingerman's, which is rated as one of the best in the country. Zingerman's has an interesting philosophy. They hold weekly meetings with all the employees—whether it’s the greeter, sandwich maker, cheese buyer, dishwasher, or busboy.

Everyone gathers, and there’s a whiteboard listing various items like the number of dishes broken, total tips received, or the time taken from ordering to delivering a sandwich.

So, for example, the dishwasher reports on how many dishes were broken that week. But the most important part is sharing an idea for improving that number next week. The person in charge of tips might suggest ways to surprise and delight customers to increase tips. Everyone has a chance to contribute ideas to make the organization and their colleagues better.

I have a friend who’s the founder and CEO of an organization. He learned about this and decided to close his company for one day for a volunteer day. It was truly voluntary—no one had to come.

They partnered with organizations like Habitat for Humanity, City Year, and the Salvation Army. He thought many people might take the day off for family time or vacation, but 88% of his employees volunteered. He was astonished.

They did the volunteer day, and although it was costly to shut down for a day, he felt it was worth it. About nine months later, employees came to his office asking, “When is our volunteer day this year?” He hadn’t planned to make it an annual event, but they insisted. Now, once a year, he closes the business for a volunteer day.

Ashish Kothari: I love it. And it’s so powerful. People often bond over happy hours, drinking, or big meals, but creating opportunities to serve together leaves a lasting impact. It creates space for our humanity to connect.

I love the contribution example—helping people contribute meaningfully to make a difference. And making it okay to acknowledge things, like asking "How many plates did you break?" where people feel comfortable sharing the real number without fear of shame, opens up opportunities for improvement.

At McKinsey, we used to have a "Values Day" once a year. The entire firm, around 60,000 employees across 70 or 80 offices, would shut down, regardless of role. That day was dedicated to discussing how we were living our values, with a part focused on community service and another part on building connections. It was a day for kindness, connection, and community. It was incredibly powerful.

I’ve been to Zingerman’s. Their food is amazing, and I’ve rarely seen a happier workplace or more joyful employees.

Kim Cameron: It's an amazing place, you know, founded by a couple of former hippies.

Ashish Kothari: Well, let’s shift gears a bit and talk about the second big element, which is what you call positive climate. You describe positive climate as a work environment where positive emotions predominate over negative emotions. I like that approach because it acknowledges that negative emotions will always exist. It’s about the ratio—ensuring there are more positive than negative emotions.

Talk to me about the impact of consciously measuring whether a workplace is net positive in energy or more negative. What have you seen, and what does the research say about that impact? Intuitively, we sense that a positive climate would be better, but is there research backing this?

Kim Cameron: There's lots of research about the difference between a positive energy, pleasant, cohesive, loving culture versus one filled with hostility, anger, rigidity, and so on.

In the United States right now, I'm just looking forward to the end of the election because every newscast and headline is caustic, antagonistic, and hostile. It’s really unpleasant, and I hope we get past this.

The reason is tied to something we talked about in our first conversation—the heliotropic effect. Human beings inherently flourish and grow in the presence of positive energy.

Ashish Kothari: Yes.

Kim Cameron: Positive energy comes from many things, like virtuousness—the kinds of virtues that represent the best of the human condition. These virtues almost always help organizations flourish.

For example, I know some organizations where every single employee, even in large companies, is given a notebook or journal and asked to keep a gratitude journal. That means writing down three things every day for which they are grateful or the three best things that happened that day. There are many studies showing the benefits of gratitude.

I have a friend who works in an organization that studies heart rhythms. He shows the pattern of heart rhythms when you're in a grateful or positive state versus a neutral or frustrated state. In the positive state, the heart rhythm is very smooth and sinusoidal, which leads to longer, healthier lives. It reminds me of that classic study with nuns who lived longer in a convent.

Ashish Kothari: Yes, you mentioned that last time—how they tracked the nuns’ life expectancy based on their mindset. It was amazing because their life conditions were identical.

Kim Cameron: Exactly. They lived an average of seven years longer. I also know a CEO who led an organization with between two and three thousand employees. He took over after the company had lost $210 million in the previous two years.

He introduced several positive "one-percent practices," one of which was having each employee “positively embarrass” someone every day. That meant complimenting someone in front of others who would care.

Some people found it uncomfortable or silly, but he insisted, saying it would unleash potential, build confidence, and help people feel recognized. And sure enough, in 12 months, the company had a $90 million turnaround. It was just one of several "one-percenters," but the idea was to create a climate where people say, "I love this place. I really enjoy being here."

Ashish Kothari: I love this, Kim. One of the things I always encourage my clients to do is, instead of only doing employee appreciation once a year or a month, make it a regular part of work. Wayfair, for instance, has a manager appreciation week before the holiday season because they know the team will be run ragged during that time, especially in call centers.

But why not do it every week? Teams meet weekly to discuss targets and progress. Imagine if, each week, we started by celebrating gains from the previous week rather than jumping straight to the gap.

We all know there’s a gap; no need to start with that. Instead, ask, “What did we gain?” and celebrate it. Then, recognize three people who made the biggest impact, and have someone a level or two above reach out to thank them personally. This approach makes appreciation a part of work, rather than a once-a-month obligation that feels routine.

Kim Cameron: I love it. In our research center, we start every meeting by going around and having each person share the best thing that happened to them last week or something they want to celebrate. Injecting positive energy into the meeting before we start often helps solve problems, generate ideas, or simply make everything run more smoothly.

Ashish Kothari: I love it. I’ve been trying to get companies to start meetings with one mindful minute, but some still resist meditation and mindfulness. Instead, I’ll suggest your approach—going around and having everyone share one positive thing from the last week.

Kim Cameron: That’s a great idea. Both listening to others and sharing your own positive experience help put people in a good place. It brings heart rate variability to a smoother, more positive state, which opens up space for creativity, connection, and more constructive conversations.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. It’s really about setting the tone for more openness and connection.

Kim Cameron: Yes, exactly.

Kim Cameron: There's a woman who's a senior-level officer in the FBI, headquartered in Washington, D.C. She learned about all this and decided to create something simple. Her office had a big glass wall that looked out on an open area. She went outside her office and wrote "Gratitude Wall" across the top of her glass. She didn’t announce it, didn’t say anything—just wrote it.

By the end of the day, several people had written acknowledgments on the wall, expressing gratitude for someone or something. By the end of the week, it was plastered, and two or three other gratitude walls emerged at FBI headquarters.

I’ve also seen this at a university in Monterrey, Mexico. When you walk into the administration building, the very first thing you see is a gratitude wall where people can write acknowledgments. So part of creating a positive climate is doing small things that uplift people. It unleashes energy, creativity, cohesion, and more frequent communication.

Ashish Kothari: I have a question, Kim. Equally important to lifting energy with things like gratitude and compassion, there’s also the reality in most organizations of conflicts, politics, and long-term resentments between functions like marketing, R&D, and manufacturing.

Marketing may keep creating product variants that others find challenging, procurement may be seen as trying to cheapen the product, and so on. This can lead to resentment and resignation, along with energy-draining conflicts. What actions can leaders take to manage conflict constructively so that it doesn’t drain people?

Kim Cameron: One of the reasons I got interested in positive energy, particularly positively energizing leadership, is that it has a significant impact. In one study, for instance, the extent to which people were exposed to a positive leader was the single most important predictor of well-being, innovation, productivity, and even family well-being. It made a difference outside of work as well.

Ashish Kothari: Wow.

Kim Cameron: So, it's not just about “singing a happy tune” and walking around with a smile. There are real, meaningful outcomes. Positive energizing leaders make a big difference. I did a study where I interviewed 600 people identified as positive leaders and gathered their attributes. There’s no strict hierarchy, but here are some examples they mentioned:

Positively energizing leaders help others flourish without expecting anything in return. They tend to be generous, seeing opportunities rather than roadblocks. They often smile and greet people—a simple thing, but effective. They help others exceed their own expectations, like the best athletic coaches who help players become better than they thought possible.

These leaders are also forgiving. Forgiveness doesn’t mean excusing, forgetting, or minimizing mistakes. It means turning errors into learning opportunities. Instead of holding someone’s career hostage over mistakes, they offer guidance, hints, or practice opportunities. They help people improve through their errors.

I recently heard former University of Alabama football coach Nick Saban talk about his approach. Many consider him one of the best college coaches of his era. When asked about his “secret,” he said he tells his players and coaching staff to “prepare for the next opportunity.” In football, it’s the next down, the next quarter, the next game. Don’t dwell on mistakes—look forward to what you can do next. I thought that was powerful.

Ashish Kothari: Quite the opposite of organizations that focus on failures by asking, "What did we mess up?" Instead, you're suggesting we ask, "What can we learn and move forward?"

Kim Cameron: You're way ahead of the pack in the things you’re doing, Ashish, and it’s laudable. You need to be congratulated. One of the helpful things to know is that there’s a lot of scientific research confirming this. Not many books show evidence, saying, “If you do this, it pays off.” Most are storytelling and inspiration, but having empirical data to back it up really makes a difference.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. One place where that’s especially clear is the power of positive relationships and high-quality connections. You and Jane have done such incredible work on this. Share a little with our listeners about the power of positive relationships and connections, and how leaders can harness that potential.

Kim Cameron: It's unbelievable. You’ve probably heard Jane talk about high-quality connections and long-term relationships. There's an overwhelming amount of data showing that human beings, at the cellular and even DNA level, respond differently in loving, supportive relationships versus the opposite. Research by Jane and others has shown that high-quality connections, even brief ones, have a powerful impact.

For example, a 20-second interaction with the postmistress who delivers our mail can make my day. It’s uplifting. Small connections like this, even just acknowledging someone in a grocery store aisle, can be meaningful. The other day, I saw a father with his little girl learning to walk. I took a picture of them, got his email, and sent it to him. It was a small connection, but I think we both walked away feeling a bit higher.

There’s also research showing that simple acts like a couple kissing each other for six seconds before leaving for work can release endorphins and lead to longer, healthier marriages. John Gottman, a well-known researcher, has talked about this, and it highlights the physiological benefits of positive connections.

In organizations, relationships matter a lot. Being acknowledged, feeling compassion from others—all these virtues, which represent the best of the human condition, create an environment where people naturally respond positively. People may resist kindness or compassion temporarily, but it’s hard to resist these things forever because it’s human nature to be drawn to virtue.

Ashish Kothari: I love it. It’s true—many dismiss these virtues as “saccharine” or “syrupy,” thinking they’re impractical. But research shows that creating a positive culture isn’t just about being nice; it actually pays off. Profitability goes up, as shown in studies. I remember you talked about a study with Prudential Financial.

Kim Cameron: Yes, Prudential Financial had us help them develop a positive culture. They made internal films about it for their meetings. They saw five times the industry average growth, with increases in profitability, productivity, and quality. And that’s just one example; similar results have been observed in many studies.

Ashish Kothari: What I also loved about that story was how, after the CEO changed, the culture continued. It became a competitive advantage because it was ingrained in how the organization operated.

Kim Cameron: Yes.The CEO of LG, the Korean conglomerate, learned about this and asked his assistant to place five thank-you cards on his desk each day.

On one side of each card, it said “Thank you,” and the other side was blank. Every day, he wrote five short thank-you notes to different people in his organization.

Ten years later, I asked if he was still doing it. He said, “Absolutely. It’s changed my organization.” He explained that he was so focused on problems and challenges that he needed this practice to notice the positive and acknowledge people.

Another example is the former CEO of Campbell Soup. He didn’t write five notes a day, but he wrote one thank-you note daily. An assistant later went around the company and found these notes posted on bulletin boards, framed, or under desk glass. Seventeen years later, they counted 4,000 notes that people had kept. They meant so much that employees held onto them.

One person told me that this practice spread, with others in the organization starting to write notes too. It became part of the culture.

Ashish Kothari: You highlight something so important, Kim. During COVID, McKinsey conducted research, led by my colleague Bonnie Dowland, called "The Great Attraction or Great Resignation."

It looked at the top reasons why people leave and what matters most to employees versus what companies think matters.

Not surprisingly, feeling valued was at the top. It reminds me of these simple practices—if we acknowledge and show people they matter, as obvious as it sounds, it's surprisingly uncommon in practice.

Kim Cameron: It’s true. It’s surprising. I think we mentioned last time the survey by the Greater Good Science Center in Berkeley, which found that only 10% of employees express gratitude or acknowledgment to someone every day, while 60% never do.

Most people don’t acknowledge, congratulate, or highlight others in their entire work setting. These are cost-free, simple actions. Writing a note takes three or four minutes, and we waste that much time every day on other things.

There was another study of people clinically diagnosed with severe depression. They all went to therapy, but one group was also assigned to write a gratitude letter to someone once a week for three weeks. That was the only additional intervention.

Two years later, they followed up and found that those who wrote the gratitude letters had not only improved in terms of depression but had better outcomes than those who only received therapy. Interestingly, only 27% sent the letter—it was the act of writing it that mattered most.

Another small but powerful thing you can do is acknowledge someone’s accomplishments to their family. For example, I could tell you, "Ashish, you’re doing an amazing job, and we’re so grateful."

Then, I might write a letter to your family saying, "You should be so proud of your spouse, your son, your dad. He’s making a tremendous impact in our organization, and we’re lucky to have him." Hearing it from both you and the most important people in your life can leave a lasting impact for a year or more.

Ashish Kothari: Wow, that’s incredibly powerful.

Kim Cameron: It costs only 10 minutes. Small actions like these can make such a difference.

Ashish Kothari: We’ll include links to your books—Positive Leadership, Practicing Positive Leadership, and others—because they’re filled with practical interventions. I love how simple and effective they are, Kim.

Kim Cameron: Oh, you’re very kind.

Ashish Kothari: They’re my go-to resources. I’ve read them multiple times, and I wish I’d discovered this work ten years ago. I’m on a mission to make sure every people leader, whether in HR or elsewhere—line leaders, commercial leaders, operations leaders—knows about this work.

Even implementing just one idea in the next year can create a positive impact on how people feel and what they achieve together. That’s the mission I’m on. Kim, I’m so grateful. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and life’s work with us. I’m blessed to have you in my life.

Kim Cameron: I feel the same toward you. You’re a role model. Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Ashish Kothari: Thank you, Kim.

Kim Cameron: You’re welcome.